Boys will be boys—and should be, to become true men

[Irishmom2]

Thorolfr:

And there are some girls that do a lot of these things, too. I’ve known a few women who were tomboys when they were growing up. In some cases, it was probably because all their siblings were boys.

I have no issue with TomBoys as long as (1) parents encourage or allow the girls to become transgender and (2) don’t force boys to play with the tomgirl.

If it’s organic, that’s cool. If it’s forced, that’s not

Is this missing the word not anywhere?

 

[phil19034]

And what if a boy is studious and prefers to read?

Then he can.

Why would anyone automatically think that being studious and liking to read is non-masculine?

My list was hardly exhaustive. I knew plenty of studious boys who didn’t like sports, etc but they still did plenty of other masculine things.

• model rockets
• building computers
• working on cars
• hiking & camping
• working with animals
• video game camp <<< though I do prefer that they get outside
• cutting grass for money
• reading books like Lord of the Rings and comic books
• etc…

There are so many things that all kinds of boys like to do that girls and/or moms stereotypically don’t do that isn’t sinful in nature.

Boys can be boys. Whether they are wild, a jock, shy, studious, dorky, nerdy, etc.

Boys will be boys the majority of the time if they are allowed & encourages to be boys.

 

[LilyM]

fj2020:

Okay, so what does “boys will be boys” mean to practicing Christians? And, I am not really judging here, because I definitely did my share of that through the years and it certainly would be classified as “secular” stuff. Now I am living out, “old boys will be old boys”, but hopefully in harmless and benign ways.

Just doing masculine stuff but without sinning.

• wrestling
• rough housing
• teasing sisters or little brothers
• teasing girls they secretly like
• making a "boys only clubhouse (while area girls have girl only clubhouses)
• snowball fights
• getting filthy after playing outside
• Playing sports & getting hurt playing sports
• getting hurt trying to do tricks on their bike or skateboard
• dunking people in the pool
• climbing trees
• falling out of trees
• play war games or paintball
• play sword fighting
• playing cops and robbers
• playing tackle capture the flag
• making campfires in backyard without adult supervision
• playing baseball in backyard and breaking a house window

Things like that

The words “roughhousing” and “teasing” are a bit problematic here - do we want girls (or anyone) to be raised to accept behaviour that
a) in some cases may amount to verbal or physical abuse
b) in others may at least be extremely unpleasant if not traumatic for the person subjected to it, and
c) may be things most adults would not accept from another adult, and possibly not from a child (or a child not their own)

just because it’s labelled “roughhousing” or “teasing” and excused away with sentiments such as “he’s only doing it because he likes you”?

Surely someone who GENUINELY likes another person should be raised - from the earliest age possible - to check in with the one they are “teasing”/“roughhousing” with that the other is actually ENJOYING the interaction, and not just (perhaps) putting up with or tolerating it because they are conditioned to do so. Far too many women and girls in particular ARE conditioned to put up with behaviour that they shouldn’t have to.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Why would anyone automatically think that being studious and liking to read is non-masculine?

Well, it wasn’t anywhere on your list. A list doesn’t have to be exhaustive to be balanced.

 

[phil19034]

The words “roughhousing” and “teasing” are a bit problematic here - do we want girls (or anyone) to be raised to accept behaviour that
a) in some cases may amount to verbal or physical abuse
b) in others may at least be extremely unpleasant if not traumatic for the person subjected to it, and
c) may be things most adults would not accept from another adult, and possibly not from a child (or a child not their own)

just because it’s labelled “roughhousing” or “teasing” and excused away with sentiments such as “he’s only doing it because he likes you”?

Surely someone who GENUINELY likes another person should be raised - from the earliest age possible - to check in with the one they are “teasing”/“roughhousing” with that the other is actually ENJOYING the interaction, and not just (perhaps) putting up with or tolerating it because they are conditioned to do so. Far too many women and girls in particular ARE conditioned to put up with behaviour that they shouldn’t have to.

Lily - I didn’t say bulling. I said roughhousing and teasing. I also didn’t say roughhousing girls.

Boys and men tease each other (playfully all time). I’m 41 years old and work in a major law firm… do I joke around and tease my brothers and close friends today? Yes I do! I they joke and tease me.

It’s what guys do. There is a HUGE different between being mean and playing. And yes, there is a fine line that sometimes is crossed. And when it is, we apologize and work it out. Again, it’s what guys do.

It is important to teach kids that “sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.”

A big part of then issues kids have today is that they are not being taught to ignore hurtful words. Instead, we are teaching kids to get upset at words and to actually get in fights over words: whether it’s a gun fight, fist fight, or political fight.

We need to calm down a little and not get upset at every little word. Now that doesn’t mean that some people shouldn’t be held accountable when someone goes too far. But we shouldn’t be having meltdowns when someone says something that is mildly of color either.

As far as rough housing is concerned - that doesn’t mean violence. I rough house with my 4 year old a lot by allowing him to jump on me, by pinning him down and tickling him, but throwing him in the air and catching him, by allowing him to jump off the bed into my arms, etc.

These are things little boys love to do with their daddy.

No reason to take such things away, esp if we are also teaching responsibility and discipline at the same time.

 

[Lea101]

Just doing masculine stuff but without sinning.

• wrestling
• rough housing
• teasing sisters or little brothers
• teasing girls they secretly like
• making a "boys only clubhouse (while area girls have girl only clubhouses)
• snowball fights
• getting filthy after playing outside
• Playing sports & getting hurt playing sports
• getting hurt trying to do tricks on their bike or skateboard
• dunking people in the pool
• climbing trees
• falling out of trees
• play war games or paintball
• play sword fighting
• playing cops and robbers
• playing tackle capture the flag
• making campfires in backyard without adult supervision
• playing baseball in backyard and breaking a house window

Things like that

Most of these are harmless. The teasing girls they like/dunking people into pools can be very harmful, though, as well as the fire in the back yard. That’s too dangerous!!

Anyway, these behaviours are stereotypically masculine sure. I guess it’s the double standard. Would you accept these behaviours from a girl as light heartedly? If yes, then great. I think your children would have an incredibly fun childhood.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

Why would anyone automatically think that being studious and liking to read is non-masculine?

Well, it wasn’t anywhere on your list. A list doesn’t have to be exhaustive to be balanced.

Well, that’s because I was addressing “boys will be boys.”

If a person saw a boy reading a Harry Potter novel, they wouldn’t shrug and say “boys will be boys.”

But if a boy gets hurt tying to ride his bike on a half pipe, riding his bike on trails though the woods, or hurts himself trying bunny hop his bike over the curb… it would not be unheard of to hear “well, boys will be boys.”

 

[phil19034]

Anyway, these behaviours are stereotypically masculine sure. I guess it’s the double standard. Would you accept these behaviours from a girl as light heartedly? If yes, then great. I think your children would have an incredibly fun childhood

If my daughter wants to do those things, great. She can.

I only object when adults force girls to do (or steer them into doing) stereotypic boy things or when boys are forced to do (or steered into doing) stereotypic girl things.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

So the kinds of things that earn a “boys will be boys” comment have the potential for injury?

 

[phil19034]

So the kinds of things that earn a “boys will be boys” comment have the potential for injury?

You are seriously reading way too much into this.

But yes, in general boys tend to take more risks than girls do.

Some things are ok risks, while others are not.

Good parents are going to teach their kids how to perform risk management so they are not afraid to take chances and risks as adults, but don’t take dangerous / stupid risks either.

 

[Lea101]

I only object when adults force girls to do (or steer them into doing) stereotypic boy things or when boys are forced to do (or steered into doing) stereotypic girl things.

Same here. But with the addition of parents forcing girls to do stereotypic girl stuff (same with boys) as well. It can also backfire because children will feel like they’re not real boys and girls because they don’t like certain things, which can kick-start the whole gender identity thing.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

I only object when adults force girls to do (or steer them into doing) stereotypic boy things or when boys are forced to do (or steered into doing) stereotypic girl things.

Same here. But with the addition of parents forcing girls to do stereotypic girl stuff (same with boys) as well. It can also backfire because children will feel like they’re not real boys and girls because they don’t like certain things, which can kick-start the whole gender identity thing.

I generally agree with this too

 

[Bruised_Reed]

You are seriously reading way too much into this.

No, I’m want to know what you mean by boys will be boys. Because it is used as an excuse for boys doing things they should not. I noticed that teasing girls they like on the list and I wonder if you see the potential problem. Lily mention a couple of things too. It would be nice if the phrase meant something lighthearted but it’s been used to excuse or note bad behavior, being mischievous. It’s used when people get hurt and it wasn’t fun.

 

[LilyM]

Lily - I didn’t say bulling. I said roughhousing and teasing. I also didn’t say roughhousing girls.

Boys and men tease each other (playfully all time). I’m 41 years old and work in a major law firm… do I joke around and tease my brothers and close friends today? Yes I do! I they joke and tease me.

It’s what guys do. There is a HUGE different between being mean and playing. And yes, there is a fine line that sometimes is crossed. And when it is, we apologize and work it out. Again, it’s what guys do.

So according to you men are supposed to be tougher, and therefore should put up with things that you wouldn’t subject a girl or a woman to? Why should there be that sort of double standard?

By the way I’m 45 and also work in a major law firm. I hear and observe a lot of the sort of behaviour you describe. Someone - someone - most always walks away from such conversations shaking their head, and not in amusement. So I wouldn’t be so sure that everyone around you is as hunky dory with things as you seem to be. Nor should they have to be. And if they happen to be your juniors, for example, aren’t always going to feel comfortable talking to you about it either. The burden is on you to do your best to behave in a professional way in the workplace.

We are Christians, are we not? And so supposed to model Christlike behaviour in every circumstance? I can’t imagine Christ giving anyone the green light to tell an off-colour joke in any situation. And St Paul talks about, if need be, refraining from things that are perfectly harmless for ourselves if they will cause another to stumble. I can’t see him saying “yes, I’m eating meat that was offered to idols … I know this is a problem for you, but it isn’t for me, so tough noogies, get over it”. Which, frankly, sounds like really lazy thinking to me. I think we are called on to be a whole lot more considerate of our fellows than that.

At the end of the day words CAN hurt, every bit as much as physical blows. This is why speech can on its own constitute abuse or bullying. And as lawyers, well trained in communication, we are better equipped than the average Joe to find a middle ground in our interactions that is humorous but without the risk of being either offensive or needlessly rough, and so should hold ourselves to a higher standard.

 

[phil19034]

@LilyM

I’m sorry, but you are reading way too much into what I’m saying and you are not understanding me in context.

I’m an NOT endorsing unchristian like behavior or unchristian like teasing. I’m also not condoning unprofessional behavior at work, nor any kind of double standard. The kinds of jokes that one might hear in a stereotypical law firm are NOT the kinds of teasing and joking I’m referring to. No way, no how.

I condone friendly teasing, the kind you might hear a priest use with someone he’s close to. Or that a group of seminarians might share between themselves.

I’m NOT condoning crude jokes, mean teasing that hurts feelings, etc.

HOWEVER, I do think we should be teaching kids “sticks and stone will break my bones, but words will never hurt me.”

There is a happy medium between no sense of humor, and unchristian like jokes & teasing.

Friendly joking and teasing is very possible.

I also never condoned off-color jokes. I acknowledged that sometimes people mistakenly take things too far. And I said we shouldn’t get too bent out of shape when someone does say something off-color. But I was NOT condoning off-color jokes.

I’m only condoning the kinds of joking and teasing that would be in good Christian fun. Similar to what one might hear on Catholic Answers Live radio (esp during the Patrick Coffin years).

Or the jokes / teasing the lay men & priests all share with one another on the The Catholic Guy Show on the Catholic Channel.

I’m talking about playful fun that is not sinful nor off color.

NOTE: when I first created my list, I was referring things that can be done without sin. Not just without mortal sin, but also without venial sin too. However, again, I did acknowledge that sometimes, people can take it over the line and when they do, they should be corrected in Christian charity, without losing our composure.

BTW - full disclosure, I am NOT an attorney. I’m an eDiscovery Project Manager.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

HOWEVER, I do think we should be teaching kids “sticks and stone will break my bones, but words will never hurt me.”

Great idea!

So how would you have taught this to someone whose dad told people they were a mistake? Asking for a friend.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

HOWEVER, I do think we should be teaching kids “sticks and stone will break my bones, but words will never hurt me.”

Great idea!

So how would you have taught this to someone whose dad told people they were a mistake? Asking for a friend.

Obviously, there are some great evils out there and some crappy parents. As with most stuff in life, the phrase “sticks and stones” follows the 80-20 rule. When I say we need to be teaching children this phrase, I typically mean our own children, not other children.

In regards to your friend’s situation:

I’m not sure exactly how I would do that because I would not be the father verbally abusing my child while trying to teach about the sticks and stones.

Obviously, it would also have to be very specific to the child, their age, my knowledge of the father & mother, etc

The only thing I can possibly think to say to a child who has such a parent is the truth. Perhaps something along these lines:

I’m so sorry, but your father is wrong. God loves you and wanted you here. You were not a mistake because God sent you here. And I am so grateful that you are here as well. Unfortunately, we all know people who let us down, and it really stinks when it’s someone you are supposed to be able to count on - esp a parent. No matter what happens, please know that I’m always here for you.

In such a situation, it’s really about how the person has let us down or perhaps doesn’t love us as they should. Such a situation with a parent is just far more serious than when we let some insignificant person hurt our feelings with their crap.

It’s honestly a crime when children receive child abuse from a parent or an another adult.

And as someone who received verbal abuse from ignorant adults as a child & teen, I know it can hurt at that moment. But learning to let it go and not hold on to those words surely helped me. Esp when I was 15, my girlfriend’s father made her break up with me because Italy was too close to Africa. Or when kids made fun of my mom for being Puerto Rican.

Did I sometimes fail and allow words to hurt me? Of course. But if my parents didn’t instill in me the sticks and stones, and constantly remind me when my feelings got hurt from mean kids, who knows what I might have done or felt.

My parents always taught us to turn the cheek when people said bad things to us. Which again, I experienced a lot of because my mom was from Puerto Rico.

So I KNOW first hand that words can hurt and do hurt if we allow them to. But it is possible to learn how to not allow it to affect us, our self worth, nor allow bullies to define us.

Is it easy? No. Sure isn’t - I threw many baseball bats, etc losing it when people bullied me. But when I would snap back or loose my temper because of something ignorant that someone said, it would always mean that I stooped to their level or worse.

So even today… I still need to remind myself about sticks and stones, because words only hurt if we allow them to hurt.

God Bles

 

[Lifeisbeautiful3]

but they still did plenty of other masculine things.

• model rockets
• building computers
• working on cars
• hiking & camping
• working with animals
• video game camp <<< though I do prefer that they get outside
• cutting grass for money
• reading books like Lord of the Rings and comic books
• etc…

There are so many things that all kinds of boys like to do that girls and/or moms stereotypically don’t do that isn’t sinful in nature.

Other ‘things that all kinds of boys like to do that girls and/or moms stereotypically don’t do’ might include: being a police officer, firefighter, lawyer, judge, senator, surgeon, someone who speaks her mind with a dissenting opinion.

Do you think girls shouldn’t do ‘stereotypically masculine’ things?

 

[Cruciferi]

whose dad told people they were a mistake?

That sounds like an abusive situation…

 

[phil19034]

Do you think girls shouldn’t do ‘stereotypically masculine’ things?

No, they can if they want.

My post has NOTHING to do with girls.

It only has to do with how “boys will be boys” can apply to sinless situations.

My posts have NOTHING to do with girls and what girls can/cannot do.

BTW, I never knew of / heard of a boy who pretended to be a lawyer, judge or senator while role playing…

(However, I guess, one might if he had a parent who was a lawyer, judge or senator? But that kind of role playing isn’t stereotypical masculine. Neither would be role playing a surgeon. While all of those professions have been historically dominated my men in the past, I would consider them to be very gender neutral.

Example:blue collar construction worker who builds skyscrapers typically would not be impressed with the masculinity of a lawyer or senator…).

Btw - even today, I really can’t think of a single US Senator who I would consider really masculine. They all seem like cry babies to me.