Boys will be boys—and should be, to become true men

[Ridgerunner]

My first “Eureka moment” came when I was probably about four years old. My older sister and I were playing with a floor-length curtain. We would fold ourselves inside the curtain and turn around and around until the twisted part touched our heads and we couldn’t turn anymore.

Once while I was doing it, my sister hit me through the curtain. Made me mad, and, deciding on revenge, I told her it was her turn to get in the curtain. To my surprise, she didn’t close the curtain over her face and watched me, so I couldn’t hit her unseen. “Girls get to watch”, she said. Hmmmmmmmm. But I didn’t question it.

Second Eureka moment. My dad had this ancient pickup that was really hard to drive. Stick shift. No power steering or brakes. My sister drove it and so did I, when we were far too young to be doing it. Anyway, my sister was driving up a hill when it stalled. She tried several times to restart it, each time losing ground and heading to the edge of a dangerous embankment. Ultimately I insisted to her that she let me do it. She wouldn’t, but we kept getting closer and closer to the edge as she tried to start the truck. Finally I was loudly insistent and she said “Okay, I’ll let you, but only if you admit I could have done it.” So I did and we were saved.

Nothing has ever better explained to me how things are between boys and girls than those two events.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

Just doing masculine stuff but without sinning.

• wrestling
• rough housing
• teasing sisters or little brothers
• teasing girls they secretly like
• making a "boys only clubhouse (while area girls have girl only clubhouses)
• snowball fights
• getting filthy after playing outside
• Playing sports & getting hurt playing sports
• getting hurt trying to do tricks on their bike or skateboard
• dunking people in the pool
• climbing trees
• falling out of trees
• play war games or paintball
• play sword fighting
• playing cops and robbers
• playing tackle capture the flag
• making campfires in backyard without adult supervision
• playing baseball in backyard and breaking a house window

Things like that

@phil19034 Why do you characterize the above as ‘masculine stuff’? Do you think girls shouldn’t do these things?

Of course girls can do these things. Who says girls can’t do masculine things? Wasn’t me. Thanks

 

[Lea101]

The most endearing form of ‘boys will be boys’ is seeing grown men doing something harmless but incredibly stupid and/or childish for fun.

 

[blackforest]

So my daughter gets into most of the things on your list. I’ve heard it suggested before on CAF’s more social conservative commenters, (not from you), that girls like her need to be more “womanly.”

I think that our culture is so confused about human sexuality that the pendulum swings in radically different directions - gender is either irrelevant or highly pronounced and highly exaggerated. Our children are all growing up with mixed messages.

 

[Lifeisbeautiful3]

I skew toward allowing either sex to perform ‘stereotypically masculine’ or ‘feminine’ roles without regard to whether they’re XX or XY or XXY. Whether that’s sewing, playing with trucks, basketball, climbing trees, or aspirations to perform roles that have traditionally been filled by one sex (teacher, nurse, lawyer, doctor, bricklayer, flight attendant, stay at home parent, etc).

 

[niceatheist]

So my daughter gets into most of the things on your list. I’ve heard it suggested before on CAF’s more social conservative commenters, (not from you), that girls like her need to be more “womanly.”

I think that our culture is so confused about human sexuality that the pendulum swings in radically different directions - gender is either irrelevant or highly pronounced and highly exaggerated. Our children are all growing up with mixed messages.

Our culture has always had a lot of expectations about gender roles, and that’s fine within its context. But it has also served to undermine the confidence and self-esteem of a lot of people who didn’t fit those roles precisely. Everyone is different, and everyone has different gifts and weaknesses, and a nurturing society is one that finds a way for every individual’s gifts to be grown, so that both the individual and society as a whole can benefit. When we force children into narrow roles that really have nothing to do with their gender at all, then we are doing a disservice not just to them, but ultimately to all of us.

 

[JimG]

Friendly joking and teasing is very possible.

I recall family gatherings as a teenager, having lengthy dinners with my parents, uncles, aunts, and cousins. My older brother was a seminarian at the time. He and his favorite uncle traded repartee and friendly insults all during dinner, causing a great deal of laughter. They were both quick on the draw with comebacks. It was like listening to one of those celebrity roasts. If they had been polite to each other everyone would have thought there was something wrong. It is the same situation when I get together with my younger brother.

 

[phil19034]

So my daughter gets into most of the things on your list. I’ve heard it suggested before on CAF’s more social conservative commenters, (not from you), that girls like her need to be more “womanly.”

I think that our culture is so confused about human sexuality that the pendulum swings in radically different directions - gender is either irrelevant or highly pronounced and highly exaggerated. Our children are all growing up with mixed messages.

Yes, masculine activities are TYPICALLY inclusive of the feminine.

Just think of masculine & feminine language in the multiple other languages that still has that (English lost it long ago)

In Spanish, the word “they” is ellos is masculine and ellas if feminine.

If you have a group of a thousand women and 1 man, the group would be masculine and use the word “ellos.” The masculine is the mixed company, not because it’s superior, but because it’s more inclusive.

Throughout history, women killed live animials to cook them and have performed many things that one might consider “masculine” - esp when her husband wasn’t around.

I honestly and strongly believe that the “weak” woman or the “fairer sex” really didn’t exist among the poor and rural peoples. I think it developed among nobels and the rich.

As white collar jobs grew, these were the men who were threaten by women. And because these men had wives who did little at home (compared to the poor and rural wives who had to kill & defeather chickens, carry water buckets on the heads, raise and nurse multiple chiilden, etc)

The rich and noble women even had wet nurses so they didn’t have to nurse or take care of their children.

History is written by the rich & powerful. So I truly think our view on male vs female is not really as old as we think.

I can’t think of a single thing that is stereotypically done by men that would make her less of a woman if she did it (except maybe chewing tobacco - which is just gross to begin with).

I’ve always said there is nothing wrong with girls playing with boys toys.

However, I don’t think the reverse is really true. Femininity by its nature is not inclusive of men.

Masculinity is all about being a provider and protector (which is why it can be inclusive)

Femininity is really all about motherhood.

I mean just look at matrimony. Matrimony is litterally all about the bride. Why? The Latin word for matrimony is matrimonium, which comes from combining mater, “mother,” with the suffix monium, “action or condition.” So basically matrimony is the act making a woman into mother or the condition of motherhood.

Men can NEVER be mothers. Men can only be providers and protectors. But honestly, it’s not impossible for women to do that too.

So my point… true masculinity is inclusive of women. But true femininity is not inclusive of men.

I hope I’m making sense because I know this is a sensitive & complex subject

 

[niceatheist]

So if a boy starts playing with a Barbie, what’s going to be your response?

(Mind you, when I played with my cousins’ Barbies, it was usually to try to melt them.)

 

[Lifeisbeautiful3]

So, if a mother dies and the father has to fill the ‘traditional role’ of nurturer, what do you make of that?

 

[Ridgerunner]

So, if a mother dies and the father has to fill the ‘traditional role’ of nurturer, what do you make of that?

My mother’s mother died when my mother was about 10. She had a younger sister about 2 years old. Her father went bankrupt in the Depression at about that time and lost his farm and home. He rented for himself…a house out in the country, and took care of his daughters during the summer himself, even though he worked hard at farm work and cutting firewood to sell. One of his sisters helped out with that.

In the winter, he placed the girls with a convent of sisters who taught school, and paid for their board there.

I have known other men who ended up raising children, and there is ALWAYS a woman involved in one way or another.

When in graduate school I worked in a home for orphan boys for room and board. The home was run by a priest. His mother lived there too and was a “surrogate mother” to the boys.

 

[blackforest]

In Spanish, the word “they” is ellos is masculine and ellas if feminine.

Forgive the nitpick. I’ll need to fact-check this, but one my friends is a Spanish journalist and said that the Royal Spanish Academy has changed this standard. This is Spain, and I’m sure the standard varies throughout Latin America and the Caribbean.

I believe that the French still use the more sexist standard, however.

I honestly and strongly believe that the “weak” woman or the “fairer sex” really didn’t exist among the poor and rural peoples. I think it developed among nobels and the rich.

I suspect this, as well. The less privileged in history haven’t been afforded the “luxury” or rigid gender roles.

Even in recent history and modern times, this has been the case. The Mommy Wars over who leaves the home for an outside job and who stays home with the kids are called off entirely for low-income and/or single mothers.

Another example: My great-grandfather wanted nothing more than sons to help out on his ranch. He ended up with four daughters. Guess what? They grew up helping out on the ranch. I have photos of my grandmother and great-aunts in their work clothes.

However, I don’t think the reverse is really true. Femininity by its nature is not inclusive of men.

I’m not so sure that I agree. Men may not be able to be mothers, but can you say that there are no effeminate men? Notwithstanding a supportive-vs.-judgmental cultural climate, do “manly men” ever take on and enjoy more feminine pursuits?

Gender roles are largely a cultural construct and are constantly morphing throughout history. Little Victorian boys often wore long hair and lacy nightgowns. Men worked predominately as teachers and secretaries before these roles became considered feminine pursuits. Many historians believe the knitting was invented by men - sailors at sea - and only much later in history became a “womanly art.” Aristocratic men in the Colonial Americas arguably spent more time than women on their hair and make-up. There are a plethora of examples demonstrating that the standards of “feminine” and “masculine” take on different faces.

That said, I also don’t support he post-modern notion of unfettered gender fluidity. I’m convinced that boys who are inherently masculine must grow up with a healthy sense of their masculinity. My hypothesis is that if it isn’t channeled in the right way - cultivating a strong, courageous, and virtuous adult men - it can go the wrong way toward aggression and physical or sexual violence.

 

[Sarcelle]

In my family, when the boys played with Barbies, it was to dress them up and put them on a model rocket so that they can launch her.

In my case when I played with a Barbie, I beheaded her. I was obsessed with the French Revolution at the time and was fascinated by the guillotine.

 

[Sarcelle]

I honestly and strongly believe that the “weak” woman or the “fairer sex” really didn’t exist among the poor and rural peoples. I think it developed among nobels and the rich.

Even among the aristocracy, during the Medieval era, the noblewoman ran the estate while her husband was away supporting the monarch in war campaigns.

The idea of a woman as an ornamental object was probably from Victorian sentimentality and was more prevalent in the middle class than in the working poor or the aristocracy.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

In ,y case when I played with a Barbie, I beheaded her. I was obsessed with the French Revolution at the time and was fascinated by the guillotine.

lol! love the creative license you used!

In all honesty, I’m glad my girls never got into Barbie…the older one had 1 or 2 but never really played with them. Both my girls love animals (horses especially) and music. All my kids are pretty balanced in the toy and interest department (regarding gender segregated interests and toys).

 

[Sarcelle]

Are Tonka toys still around?

I had a toy bull dozer and a dump truck. Very sturdy well made toys.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Yes I think they’re still around.

I loved playing “battle” with the boys in the neighborhood (there weren’t many girls there). This game involved basically fighting with sticks, baseball bats or any other “weapon” we could find…quite fun! I even tried to convince my mom to let me not go to school anymore, reason being I could play “battle” all day!..she wasn’t amused heheh

I also loved the TMNT (Donatello was my favorite) and the Batman comics.

 

[Lifeisbeautiful3]

My kids’ mother left 5+ years ago and has never called or written our children (mental illness). I’m in a surrogate role that requires all kinds of ‘stereotypically female’ gender roles. It can be done.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I had a Tonka bulldozer probably because my dad had a real one, plus a variety of farm implements. There was a bit of Case vs. John Deere rivalry in the fam so my machinery didn’t match which bugged me.

 

[Lea101]

In my case when I played with a Barbie, I beheaded her. I was obsessed with the French Revolution at the time and was fascinated by the guillotine

I used batman action figures to behead my barbies! Best part is that most of my friends who actually played with dolls ended up doing weird stuff like thatinstead of innocent tea parties.