BREAKING: Texas Republicans pass abortion law after marathon filibuster

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Tomdstone said:
I don’t see what is laughable about the US Bishop’s declaration on this. I don’t understand where ignorance comes in if a RC follows what the RC bishops say:
34. Catholics often face difficult choices about how to vote. This is why it is
so important to vote according to a well-formed conscience that perceives the
proper relationship among moral goods. A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate
who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the
voter’s intent is to support that position. In such cases a Catholic would be guilty
of formal cooperation in grave evil. At the same time,** a voter should not use a
candidate’s opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness
to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity. **35. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable
position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons.
Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to
advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental
moral evil.
usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf
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Again, love how you’re ignoring all the others, plus the Catechism of the Church, that tells us what not to do:

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.

From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.71

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.72
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.73

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.

I’d say that voting for a pro-choice candidate is formally cooperating in any and all abortions that that candidate enables as part of his career.

Care to keep going? The Church is absolute on this, and the Bishops in your statement know that, too. Nothing in your statement condones voting for a candidate who is okay with abortion if any other option is available. Indeed, in the statement you posted, it tells us what we cannot ignore a grave moral evil in our voting, and nothing much is graver than the murder of children.
 
Lochias said:
The Church is absolute on this, and the Bishops in your statement know that, too.
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If so, why did they not excommunicate the Roman Catholic priest, reverend Father Drinan, who was the most pro-choice (record of 100%) Congressman in the history of the USA? Further, why do Roman Catholic colleges invite pro-choice speakers to speak at commencement exercises. And I see that VP Joe Biden, a pro-choice Roman Catholic was at the papal inauguration, shaking the hand of the Pope with a big smile. Were these pro-choice Roman Catholic politicians ever denied Holy Communion? Didn’t Edward Kennedy receive Holy Communion and was given a Roman Catholic burial, even though, as mentored by Father Drinan, he was one of the most pro-choice Senators in the history of the USA?
It doesn’t seem like this is too absolute to me. It seems like there is a whole lot of flexibility as these Roman Catholic pro-choice politicians are in good standing in the Roman Catholic Church, unlike some of the pro-life people in the SSPX.
 
Tomdstone said:
I don’t see what is laughable about the US Bishop’s declaration on this. I don’t understand where ignorance comes in if a RC follows what the RC bishops say:
34. Catholics often face difficult choices about how to vote. This is why it is
so important to vote according to a well-formed conscience that perceives the
proper relationship among moral goods. A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate
who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the
voter’s intent is to support that position. In such cases a Catholic would be guilty
of formal cooperation in grave evil. At the same time,** a voter should not use a
candidate’s opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness
to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity. **35. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable
position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons.
Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to
advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental
moral evil.
usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf
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Joint Statement from Bishop Kevin Farrell and Bishop Kevin Vann
  1. Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship, in paragraphs 34-37, addresses the question of whether it is morally permissible for a Catholic to vote for a candidate who supports an intrinsic evil — even when the voter does not agree with the candidate’s position on that evil. The only moral possibilities for a Catholic to be able to vote in good conscience for a candidate who supports this intrinsic evil are the following:
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a. If both candidates running for office support abortion or “abortion rights,” a Catholic would be forced to then look at the other important issues and through their vote try to limit the evil done; or,
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b. If another intrinsic evil outweighs the evil of abortion. While this is sound moral reasoning, there are no “truly grave moral” or `proportionate " reasons, singularly or combined, that could outweigh the millions of innocent human lives that are directly killed by legal abortion each year.
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To vote for a candidate who supports the intrinsic evil of abortion or “abortion rights” when there is a morally acceptable alternative would be to cooperate in the evil — and, therefore, morally impermissible.
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Bishop Vasa who contributed to Faithful Citizenship has said
When we were working on the document ‘Faithful Citizenship’, and the issue of whether or not a person’s adamant pro-abortion position was a disqualifying condition, the general sense was ‘yes that is a disqualifying condition
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lifesitenews.com/news/archive//ldn/2008/sep/08091203
 
Tomdstone said:
If so, why did they not excommunicate the Roman Catholic priest, reverend Father Drinan, who was the most pro-choice (record of 100%) Congressman in the history of the USA? Further, why do Roman Catholic colleges invite pro-choice speakers to speak at commencement exercises. And I see that VP Joe Biden, a pro-choice Roman Catholic was at the papal inauguration, shaking the hand of the Pope with a big smile. Were these pro-choice Roman Catholic politicians ever denied Holy Communion? Didn’t Edward Kennedy receive Holy Communion and was given a Roman Catholic burial, even though, as mentored by Father Drinan, he was one of the most pro-choice Senators in the history of the USA?
It doesn’t seem like this is too absolute to me. It seems like there is a whole lot of flexibility as these Roman Catholic pro-choice politicians are in good standing in the Roman Catholic Church, unlike some of the pro-life people in the SSPX.
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If you’re familiar with Catholic teaching, you know that such acts serve to excommunicate such people on their own. Further, the Pope and the Church won’t turn away or refuse to shake hands with those who sin on the basis of their sin alone; that would be most unlike Christ, who we are to follow.

If things don’t seem too absolute to you, it’s because you’re looking at them through a lens of your own choosing. Personally speaking, I’m tired of trying to show people who don’t want to be shown where their error in thinking lies; suffice it to know that you are wrong, 100% wrong, completely and totally wrong on this issue, and if you would like to instead be right, you know where to ask. Until then, the burden of your willful ignorance doesn’t lie on my shoulders. Go troll somewhere else, if that’s all you’re after.
 
Lochias said:
If you’re familiar with Catholic teaching, you know that such acts serve to excommunicate such people on their own.
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Did the RC authorities ever acknowledge that Edward Kennedy or Father Drinan were excommunicated. You say that they were excommunicated on their won, but that is false, since Father Drinan was able to say Mass and Kennedy was given a full blown RC funeral. And of course, while he was alive, he was given the Sacraments, as are Kerry and Biden today.
 
Tomdstone said:
Did the RC authorities ever acknowledge that Edward Kennedy or Father Drinan were excommunicated. You say that they were excommunicated on their won, but that is false, since Father Drinan was able to say Mass and Kennedy was given a full blown RC funeral. And of course, while he was alive, he was given the Sacraments, as are Kerry and Biden today.
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None of that means that they weren’t excommunicated. Listen to my mouth-words, and understand.
 
Lochias said:
Until then, the burden of your willful ignorance doesn’t lie on my shoulders. Go troll somewhere else, if that’s all you’re after.
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This is an ad hominem argument which doesn’t address the question of how Father Drinan could possibly be excommunicated, when everyone knows that he was saying daily Mass with the approval of the RC authorities. An ad hominem argument means that you are attacking the character of someone who is expressing a different opinion, rather than addressing his argument. This is an indication of someone who is unable to defend his position on its own merits, so instead, he attacks the integrity of another, by for example, calling him willfully ignorant. In addition, in many Protestant Churches, this type of argumentation is seen as lacking Christian charity.
 
Tomdstone said:
This is an ad hominem argument which doesn’t address the question of how Father Drinan could possibly be excommunicated, when everyone knows that he was saying daily Mass with the approval of the RC authorities. An ad hominem argument means that you are attacking the character of someone who is expressing a different opinion, rather than addressing his argument. This is an indication of someone who is unable to defend his position on its own merits, so instead, he attacks the integrity of another, by for example, calling him willfully ignorant. In addition, in many Protestant Churches, this type of argumentation is seen as lacking Christian charity.
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No, I’m attacking your responses to what you’ve been shown. People self-excommunicate themselves all the time over the sins they commit. Go learn, and stop trolling.
 
Lochias said:
No, I’m attacking your responses to what you’ve been shown. People self-excommunicate themselves all the time over the sins they commit. Go learn, and stop trolling.
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If you are right, then 51% of all Catholics who voted in the 2012 election are excommunicated from the RCC, because that is the percentage that voted for Obama, the most pro-abortion president yet. Also, is there any reason to doubt that a large percentage of RC clergy voted for Obama?
 
Tomdstone said:
If you are right, then 51% of all Catholics who voted in the 2012 election are excommunicated from the RCC, because that is the percentage that voted for Obama, the most pro-abortion president yet. Also, is there any reason to doubt that a large percentage of RC clergy voted for Obama?
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Then 51% percent of Catholics have excommunicated themselves, if all of them voted with the express knowledge that they were voting for a candidate who is vehemently for the murder of children in the womb.

🤷

I never said all Catholics are infallible.

Also, let’s be sure you understand what excommunication is, in the Catholic context: the separation of someone from the fullness of the Catholic Church.

By choosing not to follow the Church’s teachings on the matter, these people separate themselves from the fullness of grace and the sacraments until such time as they contritely repent. All it takes to be fine is a sincere confession and a willingness to not sin again (even if we fall after; we get up, and keep trying).
 
LisaA said:
Yes, the Democrats have made abortion rights, homosexual agenda and hedonism their sacred rituals. The few “pro life” Democrats betrayed the movement by agreeing to vote for Obamacare with a useless executive order that was supposed to protect against taxpayer funded abortion. Many of them were tossed out by angry constituents leaving only the far Leftists representing the Democrats. At the Dem convention last year, abortion was celebrated and one former Congressman who tried to get a group of Pro Life Democrats together had FOUR only who were interested among the many hundreds at the event.

If you are a Catholic I do not know how you can vote for a Democrat. This is the party of death now. Between their rabid support of contraception, abortion, and homosexual unions they should become extinct in a few decades…one can hope

Lisa
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You’re right! It’s virtually impossible to be both democrat AND Catholic
 
Lochias said:
Then 51% percent of Catholics have excommunicated themselves, if all of them voted with the express knowledge that they were voting for a candidate who is vehemently for the murder of children in the womb.
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Everyone knows that Obama is pro-choice. Well, that just seems like a whole lot of excommunicated Catholics. That is 51% but only counts those voting for Obama. How many more have voted for other pro-choice candidates. And what percentage of Roman Catholic clergy have voted for Obama? So all those Roman Catholic priests who voted for Obama, perhaps because of his health bill or because they figured he would be more likely to keep the USA out of war, anyway, all those Roman Catholic priests are now excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church? If they do not repent, will they go to hell?
 
Tomdstone said:
Everyone knows that Obama is pro-choice. Well, that just seems like a whole lot of excommunicated Catholics. That is 51% but only counts those voting for Obama. How many more have voted for other pro-choice candidates. And what percentage of Roman Catholic clergy have voted for Obama? So all those Roman Catholic priests who voted for Obama, perhaps because of his health bill or because they figured he would be more likely to keep the USA out of war, anyway, all those Roman Catholic priests are now excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church? If they do not repent, will they go to hell?
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I don’t know who is going to hell or who isn’t. I’m not God. I trust to his mercy, and pray in reparation for the sinful actions of others. Catholics know what they should and shouldn’t do, and God is all about justice as well as mercy. 🤷

And as to the rest: No other item or agenda is as serious as the wanton and bloody murder of children. You can get that through your head right now, or ignore it, but it’s true either way.
 
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