Bring guns to church?

[Thomas_White]

I wouldn’t. That’s all I have to say. Like I said before, I’m not trying to start a Second Amendment debate.

Sure, I understand. My comment was of course entirely hypothetical. There is no possiblity for a murdered person to ever get a second chance at anything in this world. The actual fact is that if I had been in attendance at that Church service, I certainly would not have been armed either.

I honestly don’t know the solution for what has become an horrendous problem in our country. I just saw on the news that four U.S. Marines who today were at work at a recruiting center in a shopping mall in the U.S. were shot and killed. This type of violence has become a nearly daily occurrence, and obviously some type of solution is urgently required. Reslistically, I don’t know what it would be, and it seems like nobody else does either.

 

[otjm]

Sure, I understand. My comment was of course entirely hypothetical. There is no possiblity for a murdered person to ever get a second chance at anything in this world. The actual fact is that if I had been in attendance at that Church service, I certainly would not have been armed either.

I honestly don’t know the solution for what has become an horrendous problem in our country. I just saw on the news that four U.S. Marines who today were at work at a recruiting center in a shopping mall in the U.S. were shot and killed. This type of violence has become a nearly daily occurrence, and obviously some type of solution is urgently required. Reslistically, I don’t know what it would be, and it seems like nobody else does either.

If one takes a look at the name of the perpetrator, one gets a fairly clear perception of the causation. Clear back to the 70’s, there have been public statements coming out of the Middle East as to what they think of the Western World, and the US in particular; calling us “The Great Satan” has been followed with explicit commentary on their perception of our moral fiber - or lack thereof.

Which is not to say that should the US, in some strange turn of events, become morally upright, the tensions would cease - they go much deeper than that. But their commentary, often used to whip up the jihadists, certainly focuses in great part on how evil we are.

And given the commentary today concerning the methods of abortion used so that Planned Parenthood can harvest lungs, hearts, livers and other organs - all done in the benign mis-speak of “fetal tissue” donation, it is difficult to say that we are not, in some people’s eyes, subject to a form of divine retribution.

All a topic for another day. Are we more lawless than, say, 30 or 40 years ago? Crime has been going down, although we have seen instances of multiple murders, often at the hands of people who if not legally insane, are at least physically so. Common criminals, who are often opportunistic and lack an adequate concern for consequences, are committing fewer crimes. But the whackos seem to proliferate. With a tip of the hat to the ACLU for starting us down that path.

 

[styrgwillidar]

…
This type of violence has become a nearly daily occurrence, and obviously some type of solution is urgently required. Reslistically, I don’t know what it would be, and it seems like nobody else does either.

Yet, gun violence is actually declining and far lower than it has been in the past. At the same time that the number of guns has vastly increased and CCW license holders have increased considerably.

One of the problems/benefits in living in the connected internet age is the immediate access to information about incidents across the country, things we may have not had access to before.

I live in a nice neighborhood and have never felt unsafe, hadn’t really thought about bringing a gun to church-- but I also live in a state/county which refuses to allow law abiding citizens to carry so I don’t really have the option. But, I certainly wouldn’t begrudge or discourage someone from carrying anymore than I’d discourage them buying life insurance, fire extinguishers, medical kits, or other safety equipment.

 

[dreamer29]

But how did that person get the gun? If guns were not sold as much as they are and were regulated more then perhaps that situation would not have happened in the first place because that person wouldn’t have possessed a gun.

I know that’s hard to accept in America but the opinion in my country is that guns should not be sold as a commercial product and should be held only by the Armed Forces and trained law enforcement.

We have the second amendment for a reason. Secondly, if the evil person does not use a gun, maybe they will try bombs or something else to kill innocent people.

Keep in mind if an evil person wants to cause harm they will.

 

[otjm]

I’ve read through this thread. I’m not going to get into a debate about the Second Amendment, or local laws, but I will say that it saddens me deeply to read about people (and even priests!) carrying guns in church.

One would think that if there’s one place where people shouldn’t be carrying deadly weapons, it’s the church.

Very sad.

What saddens me even more is listening to the victims of armed robberies (in businesses and in homes); victims of kidnapping by an armed criminal; burglaries by armed criminals; shootings by armed criminals (and this includes the vast amount of gang-related shootings, where they are shooting someone from a rival gang, or a family member of a rival gang).

It is not a matter of debating the Second Amendment, as that is not directed to criminals. It is a fact that Chicago, a city in a county and a state all of which have the most restrictive gun laws in the country, also is a city with the highest crime rate. Over the 4th of July, 2004 in Chicago, there were 82 shootings with 14 dead. Over the 4th in 2015, it was a bit lower; they only shot 55 and only managed to kill 10.

This was over two weekends a year apart, in Chicago, with the toughest gun laws in the country.

Some of those, just from a statistical standpoint, were innocent of anything. Like the 7 year old.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

It is a fact that Chicago, a city in a county and a state all of which have the most restrictive gun laws in the country, also is a city with the highest crime rate.

We were in Chicago last year for a wedding, and were warned not to go into the black districts. We took the train out of town, within minutes we were leaving all the plush shops and offices behind, and passing through; what can only be described as slums. It seems that when great wealth and poverty are neighbours, crime will prevail.

America has just been coming to terms with black - white segregation and equality over the last fifty years or so. Black ancestors goes back to slavery, and whites to land ownership, and the wealth gap seems to widen. America seems to be a land of extremes.

The Bible has around two thousand passages that refer to justice for the poor and oppressed, when we get this right, gun crime will reduce.

 

[Even_So]

We were in Chicago last year for a wedding, and were warned not to go into the black districts. We took the train out of town, within minutes we were leaving all the plush shops and offices behind, and passing through; what can only be described as slums. It seems that when great wealth and poverty are neighbours, crime will prevail.

America has just been coming to terms with black - white segregation and equality over the last fifty years or so. Black ancestors goes back to slavery, and whites to land ownership, and the wealth gap seems to widen. America seems to be a land of extremes.

The Bible has around two thousand passages that refer to justice for the poor and oppressed, when we get this right, gun crime will reduce.

Remember all the sci-fi movies we watched depicting those scenarios? Big cities with Liberal agendas, slums and casinos, middle class on it’s way out. Back to the Future and Mad Max. It’s not so far fetched now, is it? It’s just about here.

 

[GEddie]

Remember all the sci-fi movies we watched depicting those scenarios? Big cities with Liberal agendas, slums and casinos, middle class on it’s way out. Back to the Future and Mad Max. It’s not so far fetched now, is it? It’s just about here. You think Democrats are for the working class? Together, they are all in on the One World Government scenario. Control. No guns no defense. It is meant to be that way before JESUS’ return. Still it’s truth.

Hmmm… in BTTF 2, the 1985A world arose not because of a “liberal agenda” but because of one ruthless man who used not a gun, but future sports information, to take control.

The Mad Max world came about because WW3 was fought.

Neither would have been prevented with more guns. In fact, as in our world IMNAAHO, 1985A and Mad Max had **too many **firearms in them.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Inisfallen]

You think Democrats are for the working class? Together, they are all in on the One World Government scenario.

Strange. I’ve been a registered Democrat for more than thirty years, and I’ve never run across the One World Government scenario.

Must be some other Democrats, I guess.

 

[kozlosap]

Strange. I’ve been a registered Democrat for more than thirty years, and I’ve never run across the One World Government scenario.

Must be some other Democrats, I guess.

Me either! We must not be on that conspiracy theory forum list!!!

 

[otjm]

We were in Chicago last year for a wedding, and were warned not to go into the black districts. We took the train out of town, within minutes we were leaving all the plush shops and offices behind, and passing through; what can only be described as slums. It seems that when great wealth and poverty are neighbours, crime will prevail.

America has just been coming to terms with black - white segregation and equality over the last fifty years or so. Black ancestors goes back to slavery, and whites to land ownership, and the wealth gap seems to widen. America seems to be a land of extremes.

The Bible has around two thousand passages that refer to justice for the poor and oppressed, when we get this right, gun crime will reduce.

America may have extremes, but it is not so much based on direct land ownership as it is in the financial arena - stocks and bonds. This could be a whole thread in itself.

But back to the issue(s) at hand - black victims of crimes are exceedingly more likely to have a black perpetrator of the crime than a white perpetrator. And the point I was trying to make is that, contrary to the theories of the anti-gun crowd, stricter laws do not reduce crime if Chicago is any sort of example.

What the anti-gun crowd will never talk about, let alone address, is that where concealed carry laws pass, there is a measurable and significant reduction in robberies and other person to person crimes, and burglaries (person to building).

 

[Peccavi]

Where would Jesus stand on this issue ?

 

[The_Wizard]

Where would Jesus stand on this issue ?

Luke 22:36

 

[Peccavi]

Luke 22:36

As Gandhi shrewdly observed everyone knows Christianity is a pacifist religion except Christians. Read also

Matthew 5:43-48
You have learned that they were told, “Love your neighbor, hate your enemy.” But
what I tell you is this: Love your enemies and pray for your persecutors; only so can
you be children of your heavenly Father, who makes his sun shine on good and bad
alike, and sends the rain on the honest and the dishonest. If you love only those who
love you, what reward can you expect? Surely the tax-gatherers do as much as that. And
if you greet only your brothers, what is there extraordinary about that? Even the heathen
do as much. There must be no limit to your goodness, as your heavenly Father’s
goodness knows no bounds.
Matthew 5:38-42
You have learned that they were told, “Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.” But what I tell
you is this: Do not set yourself against the man who wrongs you. If someone slaps you
on the right cheek, turn and offer him your left. If a man wants to sue you for your shirt,
let him have your coat as well. If a man in authority makes you go one mile, go with
him two. Give when you are asked to give; and do not turn your back on a man who
wants to borrow.
Luke 6:27-36
Love your enemies; do good to those who hate you; bless those who curse you; pray for
those who treat you spitefully. When a man hits you on the cheek, offer him the other
cheek too; when a man takes your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to
everyone who asks you; when a man takes what is yours, do not demand it back. Treat
others as you would like them to treat you. If you love only those who love you, what
credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. Again, if you do good
only to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do as much.
And if you lend only where you expect to be repaid, what credit is that to you? Even
sinners lend to each other to be repaid in full. But you must love your enemies and do
good; and lend without expecting any return; and you will have a rich reward: you will
be sons of the Most High, because he himself is f is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate.
We appear to have a choice of quotes and if we strictly adhered to the text Jesus suggests swords not guns.

 

[adrift]

As Gandhi shrewdly observed everyone knows Christianity is a pacifist religion except Christians. Read also

.

Matthew 10

34

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.35

For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;

36

and one’s enemies will be those of his household.’

 

[Brendan]

As Gandhi shrewdly observed everyone knows Christianity is a pacifist religion except Christians.

Do you mean the Ghandi who wrote this about the UK and their policy on firearms…

We appear to have a choice of quotes and if we strictly adhered to the text Jesus suggests swords not guns.

Excellent, so that quote from Christ about living by the sword does not apply to guns either.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Peccavi]

Of course it doesn’t swords are not guns especially not automatic rifles etc. Frankly you US Americans are gun crazy and look for any isolated verse to justify anything. In the Bible you can even isolate the verses relating to Lot to justify incest. Its the complete package I look for in the Ministry of Jesus not the odd remark often taken out of context.

 

[otjm]

Of course it doesn’t swords are not guns especially not automatic rifles etc. .

Automatic rifles require a specific Federal license to own, and precious few people have them, compared to semi automatic rifles, or pump action rifles, of bolt action rifles. Let’s get facts straight, rather than throwing around scary words.

I have a semi automatic rifle, and I use it for hunting, as well as for target shooting. I don’t drool, drag my knuckles, and I even manage to speak in proper English.

And twice I have been trapped in a business late in the evening by burglars, one of whom was armed (the other left before the police could arrive, so it was not possible to ascertain whether or not he had a weapon).

Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of recent history should remember the statement of our old buddy Adolph: “The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow
the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing.”

 

[otjm]

Where would Jesus stand on this issue ?

Considering that the Church has meditated on Scriptures for something like 2,000 years, and is said to “speak with the mind of Christ”, I would suggest you read what the Church has said about just war theory; and what it has said about self defense.

That is about as close as you are going to get to what Christ would say, I would submit.

 

[Even_So]

Of course it doesn’t swords are not guns especially not automatic rifles etc. Frankly you US Americans are gun crazy and look for any isolated verse to justify anything. In the Bible you can even isolate the verses relating to Lot to justify incest. Its the complete package I look for in the Ministry of Jesus not the odd remark often taken out of context.

Dude, or dudette, Incest? C’mon. Who is “you”? Some serious anti U.S. propaganda there. You just hang in there for prophecy to play out.