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Even_So
Guest
What is spiritual benefit?
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GEddie
Guest
If you are going to use this scripture to argue for an armed society, then logically, you would need to hold that our LORD advocated people killing each other.
“Love your neighbor, until he starts to oppress you, then shoot him in the head” is NOT a saying of His.
ICXC NIKA
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Even_So
Guest
You know, it is. It’s what the world has come to now. We have been warned of these times. Whichever way we choose, we need to be ready–to live or die. If i do own a gun and don’t bring it and my church is attacked, how will that make me feel if i don’t have it? And i mean if i survive, smart alecs. JESUS did say there is no greater You really don’t know until you own. On the flip side, we are also kind of led to lay down. The JW’s, i believe, are pacifists. They won’t even fight for our country. Where do we stand on that?
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Even_So
Guest
Now yer gettin techinicle. What i am talking about is the aftermath. Not the cause. And the former would never happen, while the latter sells tickets. Maybe i shoulda mentioned zombies.
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pete_29
Guest
Are you mad because we didn’t ban guns in 1775.
Mark121359
Well-known member
**Bring guns to church?? **
Why not? Last Sunday for instance I came dressed like this;
View attachment 22077
This Sunday I’ll probably be a bit more casual, and wear something like this…including the grenades;
View attachment 22078
Peace, Mark
Why not? Last Sunday for instance I came dressed like this;
View attachment 22077
This Sunday I’ll probably be a bit more casual, and wear something like this…including the grenades;
View attachment 22078
Peace, Mark
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adrift
Guest
How do you get that I am arguing for an armed society? What I object to is the mischaracterization that Jesus is a pacifist. He was not. If you want to argue He was than logically you should advocate for no police force and no army.
Jesus did say
Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. not lets all hold hands and sing kumbaya
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ephesians4
Guest
Wow - I looked into this elsewhere and am surprised at how much accidental gun death the USA has. I know this might sound harsh, but you have to suspect there is a lot of cavalier attitude, failure to train properly and laxity of care and attention producing that level of accidental shootings. By the way it is by no means the worst in the world, and obviously I am not inferring that everyone is waving their guns around in the family home, shooting the TV when they get sick of the show, but I was still surprised.
If the ownership of firearms is a cultural must, shouldn’t their responsible use and storage be, as well?
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The_Wizard
Guest
Again the facts from the “Brady Bunch” are misleading. You are more likely to die in an automobile accident than from a gun shoot. Using some of the logic found in this thread not only should the private ownership of firearms be outlawed but private automobile also should be outlawed also. If you want me to rely on law enforcement for my protection I want you to rely on public transportation (PT) to get you where you are going. Besides PT is good for the environment.
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Kelfa28
Guest
My husband conceal carries…usually.
I don’t think he’s ever done that at Church. Mostly because the weapon he owns would be way to obvious while wearing slacks and a button-down.
If he felt he needed to…he would.
He usually carries on a case-by-case basis when it comes to likely-hood of being approached by an aggressor.
Two of the biggest instances are going on walks with our kids in the stroller and driving around a bad area.
My husband absolutely does not trust anyone with dogs. At all.
He used to work animal control when he was in his early twenties and that was enough.
I can’t tell you how many times we’ve walked by people who are just barely controlling a large dog who starts acting aggressive and barking at my children…and the owner is smiling and trying to say “oh, he’s just harmless!”
Yeah…okay…
Also…the Church my husband goes to for KoC meetings and where I go for confession is in a bad area of town.
Both my husband and my MIL have had situations where people have tried to get into their cars while they were at a stop light or stop sign or in traffic.
My husband has pulled his weapon in that instance…once.
My MIL was inspired to go out and get her permit after that incident.
I don’t think he’s ever done that at Church. Mostly because the weapon he owns would be way to obvious while wearing slacks and a button-down.
If he felt he needed to…he would.
He usually carries on a case-by-case basis when it comes to likely-hood of being approached by an aggressor.
Two of the biggest instances are going on walks with our kids in the stroller and driving around a bad area.
My husband absolutely does not trust anyone with dogs. At all.
He used to work animal control when he was in his early twenties and that was enough.
I can’t tell you how many times we’ve walked by people who are just barely controlling a large dog who starts acting aggressive and barking at my children…and the owner is smiling and trying to say “oh, he’s just harmless!”
Yeah…okay…
Also…the Church my husband goes to for KoC meetings and where I go for confession is in a bad area of town.
Both my husband and my MIL have had situations where people have tried to get into their cars while they were at a stop light or stop sign or in traffic.
My husband has pulled his weapon in that instance…once.
My MIL was inspired to go out and get her permit after that incident.
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Peccavi
Guest
Firearms in the hands of civilians should be strictly limited and eventually completely eliminated. It’s hidden in a footnote in a document on crime by the U.S. bishops’ conference and it’s mentioned in passing in dozens of official Vatican texts on the global arms trade.
The most direct statement comes in the bishops’ “Responsibility, Rehabilitation and Restoration: A Catholic Perspective on Crime and Criminal Justice” from November 2000.
“As bishops, we support measures that control the sale and use of firearms and make them safer – especially efforts that prevent their unsupervised use by children or anyone other than the owner – and we reiterate our call for sensible regulation of handguns.”
That’s followed by a footnote that states: “However, we believe that in the long run and with few exceptions – i.e. police officers, military use – handguns should be eliminated from our society.”
Source Vatican News Agency
The most direct statement comes in the bishops’ “Responsibility, Rehabilitation and Restoration: A Catholic Perspective on Crime and Criminal Justice” from November 2000.
“As bishops, we support measures that control the sale and use of firearms and make them safer – especially efforts that prevent their unsupervised use by children or anyone other than the owner – and we reiterate our call for sensible regulation of handguns.”
That’s followed by a footnote that states: “However, we believe that in the long run and with few exceptions – i.e. police officers, military use – handguns should be eliminated from our society.”
Source Vatican News Agency
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GEddie
Guest
All I meant was that that verse does not in fact argue for the use of weapons, whether swords or otherwise. If it does then He literally wanted His followers to kill others.
He did not come to create a rubric for a civic society. Like most other such needs, He has left that up to human consciences.
ICXC NIKA.
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otjm
Guest
Apparently they never read beyond the First Amendment.
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Peccavi
Guest
So Catholics in the US support the Church unless it conflicts with their SECULAR Constitution ? Now that is interesting.
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otjm
Guest
The USCCB had a subgroup, not bishops, working on documents they signed; it was notoriously liberal, and finally got called on other areas which were clearly straying from Church teaching. This appears to have the subgroup handwriting all over it.
Catholics support the Church; but when the Church gets off a specific moral issue and starts getting into a sociological issue, or an economics issue or a legal as opposed to a theological issue, then it is getting into opinion. Dressing it up as if it were a moral issue doesn’t mean that it is preserved from any questioning.
The Clinton Justice Department (through the National Institute of Justice) found there were as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year. Given that legal gun ownership has increased since then, and other polling has shown figures as high as 2.5 million defensive uses of firearms per year, there is an extremely valid reason to question the Bishops’ opinion.
And it is just that - an opinion, which appears to not have been formed over facts, but rather emotions and an amazing lack of logic.
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The_Wizard
Guest
Mark121359
Well-known member
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adrift
Guest
Since I was not presenting this verse for the use of weapons, it becomes a straw man argument.
What??? I assume the He is Jesus? Really? Why did He establish a Church then?
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Peccavi
Guest
You Americans seem paranoid. Thank God I live in a country were guns are a rarity and the Law is enforced by police for the most part without them. What bothers me is your view that Jesus would support your assertion that only violence can meet violence which runs contrary to his call for us to turn the other cheek. As for guns in Church I view that as obscene.
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styrgwillidar
Guest
Funny, I’ve always considered the UKs restrictions on firearms to be a bit paranoid. This attitude that one must fear people having the means to defend themselves, that you fear the average person.
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