Bring guns to church?

[Peebo]

I don’t know why this is even a discussion…nothing will change…mass killings will continue…people will say how sad and shocked they are…the second amendment trumps all…whether it’s the killing of innocent men…women and children…any talk of gun control…gun registration etc is totally unacceptable by the gun lobby and those who support it…end of story…and so the killings/mass killings will continue…that’s just the facts…I’m a gun owner…would I like to see some sort of regulations…sure…but it won’t happen…the NRA threatens to oppose any politician who supports any form of gun control…so gutless politicians…Republican and Democrat…do what they are told…blame who or whatever you want…poverty…violent video games…mental illness…unemployment…racism…just don’t mention guns…stay tuned for the next mass shooting…it will happen…sure as shootin’

 

[LongingSoul]

I don’t know why this is even a discussion…nothing will change…mass killings will continue…people will say how sad and shocked they are…the second amendment trumps all…whether it’s the killing of innocent men…women and children…any talk of gun control…gun registration etc is totally unacceptable by the gun lobby and those who support it…end of story…and so the killings/mass killings will continue…that’s just the facts…I’m a gun owner…would I like to see some sort of regulations…sure…but it won’t happen…the NRA threatens to oppose any politician who supports any form of gun control…so gutless politicians…Republican and Democrat…do what they are told…blame who or whatever you want…poverty…violent video games…mental illness…unemployment…racism…just don’t mention guns…stay tuned for the next mass shooting…it will happen…sure as shootin’

It sounds like the gun lobby has become the same type of tyrannical, intimidating monster they claim to be insuring against by gun ownership.

 

[on_the_hill]

Not me. My reasoning is that the Vatican is a force for good, so the UN cannot be evil. Proof by contradiction.

 

[exnihilo]

And people don’t die in crossfires involving armed citizens?

There isn’t much crossfire among armed citizens. Are you talking about cases where a citizen uses his gun to stop a criminal? If so I don’t know how often there are innocent people shot and killed by the non-criminal. What I do know is that the police have very little liability for killing an innocent person when they use a firearm compared to a citizen.

Do you mean the ricocheted bullet is an example of cops maliciously killing people in the same way that terrorists do? Are you serious?

Um, of course not. I assume the cop did not intend to kill the person. What I did mean is that cops primary concern is protecting themselves and stopping or killing the criminal and in that order. We had a case in my town where the police shot at a criminal and killed or seriously injured a person that was behind the criminal. What I did mean is that the police and their guns can be just as dangerous as criminals whatever their intention may be.

 

[LongingSoul]

I have questions for all of you who shudder at the thought of arming yourself in a church.

Put yourself in the shoes of those murdered in Charleston.

What would you have done?

What do you think would have gone through your mind as the killer went from victim to victim shooting them?

What do you think you could have done? What would you have used to defend yourself?

Would you have tried to defend yourself or would you have simply waited your turn to die?

What if one of your family was there too? Would you have simply passively waited as they were killed?

If you answer these questions, why do so many people have a victim mentality? What makes people just give up and die?

The reality is that people around the globe face crime everyday without concluding that owning a gun is a better solution. Having lots of individually owned guns doesn’t make you either safer or feel safer. America shows just how crazy gun culture is. You’re 4 or 5 times more likely to be murdered there than anywhere else in the western world. Virtually every horrible massacre outside global warzones, is a messed up young male with a big gun living in the US.

No one in their right mind faces crime and thinks whoa we should be more like America and solve it with guns.

 

[ExMethodist]

Another way of interpreting our President’s statements, was that he has resigned to the fact that further gun control action on a Federal level is politically impossible at this time and that he wasn’t going to pursue it.

From a legal perspective, in South Carolina licensed concealed carry holders can carry in a church or other established religious sanctuary with the express permission is given by the appropriate church official or governing body. There’s currently legislation in the Carolina’s to allow certain licensed conceal carry holders too carry in a church without seeking prior express approval.

Which of the Carolinas is that legislation proposed in ? There are two different states with their own legislatures. (Sorry, pet peeve for people who don’t differentiate or mix up the two. My apologies if that wasn’t what you were doing here.

WIth that being said I have a friend in SC with a concealed carry permit who has an ankle holster that he bought just to wear under his vestments (he’s not Catholic.) His attitude that if he truly wants to be a good shepherd for his parishioners this is just taking this to its logical extension.

 

[Hans_W]

…
Take for example the recent shooting massacre in that Church, the kid was there assessing his surroundings and planning before he opened fire, if the priest or one of the members were ‘carrying’ he simply would have shot them first, or waited another day to carry out his plan, only takes about 2 seconds to hit the majority of people in such surroundings, you think you could do all of that assessing I mentioned above in the mall scenario and combat this guy at the back of the church who you can’t see and don’t have a clear shot, all in a couple of seconds? You might be good, but none are that good.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

That’s how I would have judged this situation as well. I am a layperson in that matter who has never held a weapon, let alone “carried”.

 

[ExMethodist]

That’s interesting. I heard a U.S. Army chaplain say that they are forbidden to carry firearms. When they’re in potentially hostile territory they have an armed bodyguard. I’m not sure they’re even allowed to have weapons training at all.

That is when they are on active duty as a chaplain with their enlisted Chaplain’s Assistant.

A Chaplain in the National Guard is a reservist and is not on duty other than a weekend a month, 2 weeks a year, plus deployments or other special duties. The rest of the time he’s functionally a civilian.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

The reality is that people around the globe face crime everyday without concluding that owning a gun is a better solution. Having lots of individually owned guns doesn’t make you either safer or feel safer. America shows just how crazy gun culture is. You’re 4 or 5 times more likely to be murdered there than anywhere else in the western world. Virtually every horrible massacre outside global warzones, is a messed up young male with a big gun living in the US.

No one in their right mind faces crime and thinks whoa we should be more like America and solve it with guns.

Wrong. You could cite specific proof of your statement but you will not find it anywhere.

crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-countries/

Lots of countries more dangerous than the US.

Owning and carrying a firearm does not make me feel safer. Carrying a firearm means I can react to a situation.

I have used a firearm four times to protect myself and my family. My wife has done so once when she was by herself. No shots fired. Five instances where the mere presence of a firearm stopped a crime in progress. Two of mine were multiple assailants. My wife’s was a multiple assailant. You glorify the massacres but ignore the lawful use of firearms. Most of the events go unreported. Ignore facts if you want to. You are free to do so.

By the way, you did not answer any of my questions. Please answer my questions and tell me what you would do. You already know what I would do.

foxcarolina.com/story/17251517/churchgoers-subdue-gunman-at-spartanburg-church

This was not reported by all of the media because it did not meet their antigun sensationalist criteria.

In Spartanburg, South Carolina, a legally licensed firearms carrier stopped a shotgun wielding deranged individual cold at a Baptist church. No one shot. No one wounded. Bad guy caught. End of story.

articles.latimes.com/2007/dec/11/nation/na-shoot11

An armed woman in Colorado shot a crazed individual who had already killed two people at another location. He was already shooting church members when she pulled her handgun and shot him. He decided it was time to stop and shot himself.

Armed citizens can and do make a difference. They can’t if forearms are outlawed. I could go on about criminals not obeying laws but the issue is most sensationalists do not realize murder is already illegal.

 

[on_the_hill]

I have used a firearm four times to protect myself and my family. My wife has done so once when she was by herself. No shots fired. Five instances where the mere presence of a firearm stopped a crime in progress. Two of mine were multiple assailants. My wife’s was a multiple assailant. You glorify the massacres but ignore the lawful use of firearms. Most of the events go unreported. Ignore facts if you want to. You are free to do so.

I’ve lived in and around cities all my life, and I’ve never once been a crime victim, other than having my car broken into once in Chicago. I’ve only known two people over the past 48 years who were victims of street crime–both muggings. The only person to own a firearm is my father-in-law. No one has ever needed one.

Wait…now that I think of it…my grandfather’s brother was a part-time police officer and was shot and killed chasing a bad guy down a dark alley in 1953. So there was that one.

 

[Tomdstone]

Lots of countries more dangerous than the US.

Which are they? Mostly countries ruled by violent drug lords. US is up there on crime and violence and now mass killings occurring more often with no one doing anything about it.
“The horrific mass murder at a movie theater in Colorado in July 2012, another at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin that August, another at a manufacturer in Minneapolis that September—and then the unthinkable nightmare at a Connecticut elementary school that December—were some of the latest in an epidemic of such gun violence over the last three decades. Since 1982, there have been at least 70 mass shootings across the country,… A recent analysis of this database by researchers at Harvard determined that mass shootings have been on the rise.”
motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

 

[Eddie_Mac]

I’ve lived in and around cities all my life, and I’ve never once been a crime victim, other than having my car broken into once in Chicago. I’ve only known two people over the past 48 years who were victims of street crime–both muggings. The only person to own a firearm is my father-in-law. No one has ever needed one.

Wait…now that I think of it…my grandfather’s brother was a part-time police officer and was shot and killed chasing a bad guy down a dark alley in 1953. So there was that one.

My first one was at an ATM back when they first came into use. Two hispanic males tried to rob me at night. Mine was bigger.

Second one was when me, my wife, two sons and two of their friends were stuck in traffic after attending a tractor pull at the Astrodome. A man walked up to our car and tried to get in. He did not like my .45 in his face.

Third was in California. Three Arab males tried to drive away without paying me $800.00 for what he purchased and loaded into his truck. I stuck my .45 in his ear and asked for my cash. He wet his pants when I told him I was from Texas.

Fourth was after hurricane Katrina. A man tried to rob me at a car wash in Beaumont, Texas. I only had my back up gun handy but he left quickly.

My wife was at her sister’s. Two men came up behind her as she sat in the driveway with the door open. She drew her weapon and they ran. This one was reported to PD. They laughed and told her she did good.

I used a knife in California when a drug crazed loon tried to rob me outside a fast food restaurant at night. He understood when I told him I was going to gut him. He want around the corner and was arrested by a deputy the restaurant owner called.

I am not going to be a victim.

You are lucky you have not experienced any crime issues. God bless you.

God bless us. We are alive.I can’t help but think about how many more people would be alive if they only prepared.

 

[meltzerboy]

My first one was at an ATM back when they first came into use. Two hispanic males tried to rob me at night. Mine was bigger.

Second one was when me, my wife, two sons and two of their friends were stuck in traffic after attending a tractor pull at the Astrodome. A man walked up to our car and tried to get in. He did not like my .45 in his face.

Third was in California. Three Arab males tried to drive away without paying me $800.00 for what he purchased and loaded into his truck. I stuck my .45 in his ear and asked for my cash. He wet his pants when I told him I was from Texas.

Fourth was after hurricane Katrina. A man tried to rob me at a car wash in Beaumont, Texas. I only had my back up gun handy but he left quickly.

My wife was at her sister’s. Two men came up behind her as she sat in the driveway with the door open. She drew her weapon and they ran. This one was reported to PD. They laughed and told her she did good.

I used a knife in California when a drug crazed loon tried to rob me outside a fast food restaurant at night. He understood when I told him I was going to gut him. He want around the corner and was arrested by a deputy the restaurant owner called.

I am not going to be a victim.

You are lucky you have not experienced any crime issues. God bless you.

God bless us. We are alive.I can’t help but think about how many more people would be alive if they only prepared.

The flipside of your argument is that maybe you and your family would not have been targets so many times if the number and availability of guns on the market were not so abundant. The interaction of more guns and an increase in mental illness is, in particular, a deadly one.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

The flipside of your argument is that maybe you and your family would not have been targets so many times if the number and availability of guns on the market were not so abundant. The interaction of more guns and an increase in mental illness is, in particular, a deadly one.

The availability of firearms makes no difference.

The law abiding person obeys gun laws.

Criminals do not. They will obtain them no matter what the law says.

What is the difference in what the perp uses to force his victims? I would rather face a gun than a knife. Survival rate for gunshots is around 80%. Survival of stabbings is around 20%.

An assailant with a knife can stab you from 21 feet away before you can pull a firearm. Even if you have your handgun drawn, odds are a perp will cut you before you can shoot him from that distance.

The issue is not necessarily mental illness, it is the plethora of mind altering medications.

 

[Bradski]

What I did mean is that the police and their guns can be just as dangerous as criminals whatever their intention may be.

I see. So your solution to make things safer is…to arm everyone?

 

[robertericleech]

Which are they? Mostly countries ruled by violent drug lords. US is up there on crime and violence and now mass killings occurring more often with no one doing anything about it.
“The horrific mass murder at a movie theater in Colorado in July 2012, another at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin that August, another at a manufacturer in Minneapolis that September—and then the unthinkable nightmare at a Connecticut elementary school that December—were some of the latest in an epidemic of such gun violence over the last three decades. Since 1982, there have been at least 70 mass shootings across the country,… A recent analysis of this database by researchers at Harvard determined that mass shootings have been on the rise.”
motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

Only 70 since 1982? That seems like a *low *number. There is also the constant drumbeat of individual shootings that don’t make the national news because the victims are mostly poor and non-white. Every illegal gun in the hands of a criminal was bought legally in a state with lax laws originally, then resold, and the only people who seem to be benefiting from all of this are gun manufacturers and morticians.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’ve lived in and around cities all my life, and I’ve never once been a crime victim, other than having my car broken into once in Chicago. I’ve only known two people over the past 48 years who were victims of street crime–both muggings. The only person to own a firearm is my father-in-law. No one has ever needed one.

Wait…now that I think of it…my grandfather’s brother was a part-time police officer and was shot and killed chasing a bad guy down a dark alley in 1953. So there was that one.

I shot and killed an aggressive dog as it was attacking my newborn child in a stroller on a walk. I credit my conceal carry with saving my kid’s life. It was a pit who’s owner had no control.

I also used a knife to stop a home invasion as a teenager when my parents were out for the evening. It happens.

 

[Tomdstone]

I shot and killed an aggressive dog as it was attacking my newborn child in a stroller on a walk. .

Police do nothing about dogs attacking you until its too late.

 

[Brendan]

But how did that person get the gun? If guns were not sold as much as they are and were regulated more then perhaps that situation would not have happened in the first place because that person wouldn’t have possessed a gun.

I know that’s hard to accept in America but the opinion in my country is that guns should not be sold as a commercial product and should be held only by the Armed Forces and trained law enforcement.

CN, what prevents someone from making one? Unlike most illegal drugs, there is no regulated materials or tools. You can get the materials to make a firearm at any automotive junkyard. It is simple steel.

The tools used can be obtained at any good hardware store. The metal working skills necessary are actually taught in many secondary schools. A person could take classes in, say automotive body repair, and that would give them the needed skills to make a functioning firearm

I myself made a flintlock carbine, it was a particular piece that I wanted for re-enacting. I machined the pieces in my garage at home. It actually would have been easier for me to make a sub-machine gun instead of the flintlock.

The UK kindly created a sub-machine gun in WW-II that was specifically designed to be made in small garage shops using simple tools. It was called the Sten.

Here are the plans, all ready for simple download
milsurps.com/content.php?r=422-Blueprints-for-The-STEN-MKII-(complete-machine-plans

I happen to be an engineer, and picked up the skills simply by watching the guys on the plant floor do tool and die work.

So given that, how would you envision that these be restricted to Armed Forces or law enforcement? How would you prevent a person from making these and selling them to, say gang members, in much the same way illegal drugs are sold today.

Even with the type of ban you are taking about, getting a hold of a firearm would be no more difficult than getting a bag of marijuana.

 

[Even_So]

In fact the framers of the Constitution were well educated, civilized men, who believed in the rule of law. That’s why the seldom-quoted first half of the Second Amendment says, ‘A well-regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.’ For some reason, many NRA supporters leave the first half of that sentence out. We didn’t have a huge standing military with a million and a half active duty members in 1791.

I like shooting, and I don’t think all guns should be banned…but, in my opinion, this idea that the average person needs to keep a military arsenal in their home for dubious protection from some sinister future government is a pseudo-apocalyptic paranoid fantasy designed to create a market for the multi-billion dollar firearms industry. They have to sell all those guns to somebody.

Appreesh the opine, but maybe the reason militia is left out as you say is because people would think of the NRA members as anarchists, when it is quite the opposite. Militias are to keep the gov in check, not to fight wars overseas. If you like shooting, join the NRA before your rights are gone and quit criticizing those who make them. They fight for our rights. Do you identify as being liberal?

And “pseudo-apocalyptic paranoid fantasy” fits today’s society that is running around shooting innocent people. Unless it’s the guns fault. Feel free to place complete trust in the gov’t. And good luck.