Bring guns to church?

[Even_So]

I think you need to get out on the interwebz and read more. You would be surprised at what the armed citizenry can do. There is much more to freedom loving citizens than the yokels you refer to. Actually calling them yokels is derogatory and has no place in a civil discussion. The patriots that fought and won our country’s freedom were probably what you would refer to as a yokel. They were the 3% of the populace.

3%? That’s interesting seeing as we did not have that many people to begin with.

 

[Even_So]

400,000 life-threatening crimes every day? Is that in the USA? If so, then does that make the USA the most violent and crime ridden country in history?

Becoming the most immoral. Do you believe as the USA goes, so goes the world? No that it matters, but i sure do.

 

[Even_So]

In that case it is a matter of getting these gangs off the streets by community programs,education and jobs. By getting rid of youth unemployment and giving young people a job then this will keep them off the streets and reduce the number of gangs and therefore making society safer.

caselaw.findlaw.com/il-supreme-court/1189208.html

Here is a case where a left gov’t didn’t want (wouldn’t let?) a church in even though it would help keep kids off the streets. Scan down to the paragraphs after the criteria. I heard it on Wallbuilders radio program. Great site for any patriot.

wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755

 

[exnihilo]

I see. So your solution to make things safer is…to arm everyone?

I didn’t propose a solution. Actually the world is safer in our age of guns. At least when not considering war, which is conducted by the state who many people want to keep armed. Your chance of being murdered is much lower than it was in the past when folks only had rocks, sticks, knives, spears, and swords. The world will never be free from danger.

If I did propose a solution it would be to embrace the Christian Faith. It has done more to make the world safe then any law ever could.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

For those who oppose armed citizens in churches and have expressed concerns about the rare occasion when shots are actually fired, you are missing some points on how exactly armed citizens prevent crime.

When legislation exists that statutorily prevents citizen’s arming themselves at church, it is the knowledge that there is a high degree of certainty that the armed assailant will not face any resistance. These gun free zones do not protect anyone. Interviews with convicted felons has shown that they pick their targets on the likelihood that thy will face no armed resistance, and that during shooting events, when faced with armed resistance most of the time the shooters take their own life or leave.

The likelihood of armed resistance does prevent events like happened in Charleston.

 

[Pulvis]

Father at my parish mentioned this this morning. He is aware that a few of us are concealed carry permit holders. We also have several LEO parishoners. He said that it gives him comfort knowing that with the evil of these days.
Without sounding like a cliché, when seconds count, the Police are minutes away. The sad reality is that the Police are a reactionary force. They are called after an event starts. In those miutes an armed, trained citizen can make the difference between another mass killing, or one dead shooter. As the horrific shooting in Charleston shows, gun free zones are an invitation to psychopaths. Mr. Roof even mentioned this to a black aquaintence prior to his trip to Charleston. He wanted to target a school or college, but thought they would be defended.

And in response to another poster claiming that gun rights supporters do not mention the first part of the 2nd amendment, you really need to read the Federalist papers explaining why the amendment was put into the Bill of Rights and the feelings of the framers to having a standing army.

Pray for the peaceful repose of the victims of the Charleston shooting and their families. And pray for the shooter. Pax.

 

[LongingSoul]

For those who oppose armed citizens in churches and have expressed concerns about the rare occasion when shots are actually fired, you are missing some points on how exactly armed citizens prevent crime.

When legislation exists that statutorily prevents citizen’s arming themselves at church, it is the knowledge that there is a high degree of certainty that the armed assailant will not face any resistance. These gun free zones do not protect anyone. Interviews with convicted felons has shown that they pick their targets on the likelihood that thy will face no armed resistance, and that during shooting events, when faced with armed resistance most of the time the shooters take their own life or leave.

The likelihood of armed resistance does prevent events like happened in Charleston.

Alternately, for those who experience life and circumstances without the presence of weapons in the mix, as potential slaughterfields, as walking target zones and as helpless victims or potential murder statistics ie. experiencing your life as a temporary American so to speak… there is a whole other culture and experience of safety, security and peace in a society where guns are not a necessary household item. Guns feature only as tools of trade, sport and highly regulated as weapons of defense, limited to the official trained defense personal.

The fear that without a gun on my belt that I’m a walking target is not a reality. It’s an exaggerated paranoid delusion that feeds a culture of war or cold war. Have you considered that the violent gun culture and crime potential in America is being fed by the presence of those very guns as necessary household items? When you look at other western countries that prohibit guns for personal defense… do you not see that there is no intense fear or victim mentality? Even when crimes occur no one believes that flooding the society with guns would end or curtail that unfortunate human reality of crime and criminals. Most of us are more likely to think in a moment of crime ‘lucky guns aren’t more of a feature in criminal activity here’.

There is a far bigger picture that is affected by the presence of guns in society and the peoples attitude towards them. It takes generations to develop the mentality that without guns society is a walking target field and it will take generations to abandon that menality and pare back the inordinate reliance and love of the gun both in the law abiding citizen and the criminal mind. It has to start with greater regulation and a slow rollback of things like the discriminatory theory of rights that puts guns in the hands of the powerful and makes the weak and vulnerable who are refused the right, collateral damage.

It would be good if Pope Francis could move onto the use of guns in society next. That’d get the ball rolling!!

 

[meltzerboy]

Alternately, for those who experience life and circumstances without the presence of weapons in the mix, as potential slaughterfields, as walking target zones and as helpless victims or potential murder statistics ie. experiencing your life as a temporary American so to speak… there is a whole other culture and experience of safety, security and peace in a society where guns are not a necessary household item. Guns feature only as tools of trade, sport and highly regulated as weapons of defense, limited to the official trained defense personal.

The fear that without a gun on my belt that I’m a walking target is not a reality. It’s an exaggerated paranoid delusion that feeds a culture of war or cold war. Have you considered that the violent gun culture and crime potential in America is being fed by the presence of those very guns as necessary household items? When you look at other western countries that prohibit guns for personal defense… do you not see that there is no intense fear or victim mentality? Even when crimes occur no one believes that flooding the society with guns would end or curtail that unfortunate human reality of crime and criminals. Most of us are more likely to think in a moment of crime ‘lucky guns aren’t more of a feature in criminal activity here’.

There is a far bigger picture that is affected by the presence of guns in society and the peoples attitude towards them. It takes generations to develop the mentality that without guns society is a walking target field and it will take generations to abandon that menality and pare back the inordinate reliance and love of the gun both in the law abiding citizen and the criminal mind. It has to start with greater regulation and a slow rollback of things like the discriminatory theory of rights that puts guns in the hands of the powerful and makes the weak and vulnerable who are refused the right, collateral damage.

It would be good if Pope Francis could move onto the use of guns in society next. That’d get the ball rolling!!

Wise words well stated! The United States’ love affair with guns is inbred and part of the Old West cowboy and rugged pioneer mindset. But times have changed since then and the legal right to bear arms must be redefined as such in the context of modern society. After all, the U.S. Constitution is much better conceived as a living, breathing document rather than a rigid, anachronistic one. All of our freedoms must remain but must also be continuously reinterpreted and reevaluated in keeping with the needs of the society in which we live. Even the majority of religious institutions realize this with regard to their holy texts.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Wise words well stated! The United States’ love affair with guns is inbred and part of the Old West cowboy and rugged pioneer mindset. But times have changed since then and the legal right to bear arms must be redefined as such in the context of modern society. After all, the U.S. Constitution is much better conceived as a living, breathing document rather than a rigid, anachronistic one. All of our freedoms must remain but must also be continuously reinterpreted and reevaluated in keeping with the needs of the society in which we live. Even the majority of religious institutions realize this with regard to their holy texts.

What part of your right to freedom of religion, due process, or others would you like to have taken away in a “living and breathing” document? You seem to think my right to keep and bear arms should be lived and breathed away. What is done to one freedom can be done to others. In fact if the 2nd amendment is lived and breathed away their is nothing you or anyone else can do to win it back. Ask the Jews and Catholics and others who the nazis slaughtered about it. Ask the Chinese who Mao killed. Ask the Russians that Stalin killed.
Try this link:

jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/GCA_68.htm

The Gun Control Act of 1968 is almost verbatim from the Nazi Weapon Law of 1938 that the Nazis used to round up all of the Jews firearms. That link is a Jewish site so they have nothing to lie about. I actually have the book.

Gun control is sinister.

Racist roots of gun control.

constitution.org/cmt/cramer/racist_roots.htm

A lot of the US gun control laws were enacted to prevent blacks from carrying firearms. In Texas we just restored open carry during our past legislative session. Open carry was outlawed in 1867 or so by carpetbaggers to prevent blacks from carrying firearms.

I find it very offensive when people claim the I need to have my rights squashed just to make them feel better.

Over 94, 000,000 killed by communist governments since 1918. All communist governments outlawed firearms.

scottmanning.com/content/communist-body-count/

The University of Hawaii sets the death toll at 262,000,000.

hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

You think it won’t happen to you because you vote?

Keep voting. See what it gets you.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Alternately, for those who experience life and circumstances without the presence of weapons in the mix, as potential slaughterfields, as walking target zones and as helpless victims or potential murder statistics ie. experiencing your life as a temporary American so to speak… there is a whole other culture and experience of safety, security and peace in a society where guns are not a necessary household item. Guns feature only as tools of trade, sport and highly regulated as weapons of defense, limited to the official trained defense personal.

The fear that without a gun on my belt that I’m a walking target is not a reality. It’s an exaggerated paranoid delusion that feeds a culture of war or cold war. Have you considered that the violent gun culture and crime potential in America is being fed by the presence of those very guns as necessary household items? When you look at other western countries that prohibit guns for personal defense… do you not see that there is no intense fear or victim mentality? Even when crimes occur no one believes that flooding the society with guns would end or curtail that unfortunate human reality of crime and criminals. Most of us are more likely to think in a moment of crime ‘lucky guns aren’t more of a feature in criminal activity here’.

There is a far bigger picture that is affected by the presence of guns in society and the peoples attitude towards them. It takes generations to develop the mentality that without guns society is a walking target field and it will take generations to abandon that menality and pare back the inordinate reliance and love of the gun both in the law abiding citizen and the criminal mind. It has to start with greater regulation and a slow rollback of things like the discriminatory theory of rights that puts guns in the hands of the powerful and makes the weak and vulnerable who are refused the right, collateral damage.

It would be good if Pope Francis could move onto the use of guns in society next. That’d get the ball rolling!!

Let’s just see how Australia is doing of late.

Cairns child killings. 8 children stabbed to death in 2014. Real civilized.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairns_child_killings

Hunt family murders in Lockhart, New South Wales in 2014. Wait! He used a firearm!

news.com.au/national/lockhart-shooting-wagga-wagga-community-reeling-after-hunt-family-tragedy/story-fncynjr2-1227053811861

Quaker Hills fire. 2011. 11 burned to death. Very civilized. Looks like your generational thing needs a few more to drop before it gets better.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers_Hill,_New_South_Wales#Nursing_home_fire

Time magazine. Not a right wing rag at all. Australia gun Laws :Little Effect

content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1736501,00.html

Next:

reason.com/blog/2012/12/27/how-has-heightened-gun-control-worked-in

Quote from article.

Strict gun laws in Great Britain and Australia haven’t made their people noticeably safer, nor have they prevented massacres. The two major countries held up as models for the U.S. don’t provide much evidence that strict gun laws will solve our problems./QUOTE]

If the world is so safe, why do half-way influential people and penny ante politicians demand ARMED security?

When the world is safe for cops to go unarmed I give up mine.

 

[meltzerboy]

What part of your right to freedom of religion, due process, or others would you like to have taken away in a “living and breathing” document? You seem to think my right to keep and bear arms should be lived and breathed away. What is done to one freedom can be done to others. In fact if the 2nd amendment is lived and breathed away their is nothing you or anyone else can do to win it back. Ask the Jews and Catholics and others who the nazis slaughtered about it. Ask the Chinese who Mao killed. Ask the Russians that Stalin killed.
Try this link:

jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/GCA_68.htm

The Gun Control Act of 1968 is almost verbatim from the Nazi Weapon Law of 1938 that the Nazis used to round up all of the Jews firearms. That link is a Jewish site so they have nothing to lie about. I actually have the book.

Gun control is sinister.

Racist roots of gun control.

constitution.org/cmt/cramer/racist_roots.htm

A lot of the US gun control laws were enacted to prevent blacks from carrying firearms. In Texas we just restored open carry during our past legislative session. Open carry was outlawed in 1867 or so by carpetbaggers to prevent blacks from carrying firearms.

I find it very offensive when people claim the I need to have my rights squashed just to make them feel better.

Over 94, 000,000 killed by communist governments since 1918. All communist governments outlawed firearms.

scottmanning.com/content/communist-body-count/

The University of Hawaii sets the death toll at 262,000,000.

hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

You think it won’t happen to you because you vote?

Keep voting. See what it gets you.

Note that I said “All of our freedoms must remain.” I do not want to take your right to bear arms away. All I am suggesting is to reexamine the issues in the context of the society we live in, perhaps those issues concerning the types of guns permitted to be purchased, gun sales loopholes in states that are more lax than Texas, strict enforcement of waiting periods to verify criminal and mental health records, online ammunition sales, and so on. I would NOT favor taking away guns from law-abiding citizens that they use to protect their homes and their businesses or for hunting purposes. All liberals are NOT evil.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Note that I said “All of our freedoms must remain.” I do not want to take your right to bear arms away. All I am suggesting is to reexamine the issues in the context of the society we live in, perhaps those issues concerning the types of guns permitted to be purchased, gun sales loopholes in states that are more lax than Texas, strict enforcement of waiting periods to verify criminal and mental health records, online ammunition sales, and so on. I would NOT favor taking away guns from law-abiding citizens that they use to protect their homes and their businesses or for hunting purposes. All liberals are NOT evil.

Come to Texas and I’ll take you shooting. Guarantee you will have a good time exercising your right to keep and bear arms.

 

[Tomdstone]

I do not want to take your right to bear arms away.

I disagree. With so many mass killings taking place in America, with children being gunned down in school, with peace-abiding Church goers being gunned down as they pray, I think that the time has come to take away this right where the mentally ill are owning and shooting innocent people with their automatic or semi-automatic machine guns.

 

[Even_So]

.

Please legitimately consider this, if your in a crowded mall and you hear what ‘might’ be gun shots, by the time you assess who the shooter is (considering you have ruled out cap guns, blanks, a joke etc) and whether he needs to be taken out, chances are, he has already hit you, unless you were in a fortunate position to begin with.

Not to mention, that your standard little hand guns (M9, Glock etc) are no match at all for your standard Assault rifles, especially kitted out with magazines of 30 rounds or more.

Take for example the recent shooting massacre in that Church, the kid was there assessing his surroundings and planning before he opened fire, if the priest or one of the members were ‘carrying’ he simply would have shot them first, or waited another day to carry out his plan, only takes about 2 seconds to hit the majority of people in such surroundings, you think you could do all of that assessing I mentioned above in the mall scenario and combat this guy at the back of the church who you can’t see and don’t have a clear shot, all in a couple of seconds? You might be good, but none are that good.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

Did consider and can agree on that. Cept there may be someone that good. Not me.

 

[meltzerboy]

Come to Texas and I’ll take you shooting. Guarantee you will have a good time exercising your right to keep and bear arms.

Thanks for the invitation. I do have relatives in Houston but they’re basically city slickers. If I’m in the vicinity, I may look you up. A friend of mine who moved from New York to Shreveport, Louisiana was taken by friends to a shooting range and loved it.

 

[meltzerboy]

I disagree. With so many mass killings taking place in America, with children being gunned down in school, with peace-abiding Church goers being gunned down as they pray, I think that the time has come to take away this right where the mentally ill are owning and shooting innocent people with their automatic or semi-automatic machine guns.

I agree that the mentally ill should not own weapons of any sort, and I doubt anyone thinks they should. One of the problems is that they may gain access to guns from family members or friends. Another problem is that they may later develop mental problems, having first purchased a gun when they were relatively normal. The latter is difficult to account for, but the former can be prevented with vigilance on the part of family and friends. A third issue is getting people with mental and emotional problems proper and consistent treatment before they pose a danger to themselves and others.

 

[Tomdstone]

I do not want to take your right to bear arms away.

Not a good idea. I would deny and take away these rights from many people, for example, from the blind. A blind man in New Jersey shot himself accidentally in the leg and the police took away his guns. But he appealed to the courts and the courts restored the rights of this blind man to own and shoot guns. IMHO, it is dangerous to give automatic and semi-automatic weapons to blind people who can’t see what they are shooting at. Where is the concern for the children in school, for the people praying in Church as they are being gunned down in massacres and no one is doing anything about it?

theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/sep/10/america-gun-licences-blind-people

 

[Tomdstone]

One of the problems is that they may gain access to guns from family members or friends…

This problem is solved by holding those friends and family members equally responsible for any murders which took place as a result of their gifting these guns to insane people.

 

[PeteZ28]

Canada seems to be doing all right as a country, and it appears to me to be a bit cleaner than the country just to the south of it. I don’t really understand the necessity of having a British royalty. But at the same time, I don’t see life in Canada all that much different from life in the USA, except that the Canadian cities seem to be more neatly kept and less dirty. It is see for example, as you cross the border from Hamilton Canada to Buffalo NY.

Cleaner how, by measure of the amount of the city streets? It also has a court that recently upheld a law restricting religious free speech against, among other things, homosexuality. Virtually no laws restricting abortion. They were the 4th country in the world to legalize gay marriage. The courts unanimously struck down a ban on assisted suicide.

I’ve been to Canada several times, nice place and the people are friendly. But I wouldn’t want to live there; overall it gave me the overall impression of being extremely secular.

 

[meltzerboy]

This problem is solved by holding those friends and family members equally responsible for any murders which took place as a result of their gifting these guns to insane people.

Perhaps they should be held responsible. Then again, maybe they were not insane at the time they received the gun. OTOH, if the family member or friend knew the mental state of the recipient and gave them a gun anyway, they should bear some responsibility. It would seem to me in that situation, the one gifting the gun is also insane.