Britain’s human rights policies violate natural law, Pope says [Times-UK]

[Ronsatron]

I may be mistaken, but I thought the policy he was criticizing was the fact that the cathloic church or catholic groups would not be allowed to discriminate against potential employees on things like their sexuality. For example if a gay person applied for a manual job such as a cleaner and was rejected on the basis of their sexuality.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Really?, so if an organization doesn’t accept tax money, then they will be exempt form these ‘equality’ laws.

Is that what you are saying?

If so, could you point out in the proposed law where that exclusion exists?

Brendan,

Please consider that it really is a matter of money with your church in the UK. This is not happening in the US because tax dollars are not maintianing the catholic churches here. Taxpayers put their voices into matters where they are footing the bill. Gone are the days were the UK was mostly christian, and there was little objection to this practice.
I have to run, but think about this some more.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan,

Please consider that it really is a matter of money with your church in the UK. This is not happening in the US because tax dollars are not maintianing the catholic churches here. Taxpayers put their voices into matters where they are footing the bill. Gone are the days were the UK was mostly christian, and there was little objection to this practice.
I have to run, but think about this some more.

And my question still stands. If an organization rejects tax money, will they be exempt from this legislation?

 

[anothertrekker]

Welcome to CAF! Your title needs to match the articles headline.

Also, you are misrepresenting the pope. He doesn’t condemn homosexuals or transsexuals in the article. The statements are about the equality law and the manner in which it infringes on the rights of others - especially religious freedom.

Sorry about the title. Won’t do it again

I read the article over and over again. He isn’t condemning them but he is asking catholic organizations to discriminate them. So, hate the sin, love the sinner, don’t condemn, just discriminate?

 

[anothertrekker]

And my question still stands. If an organization rejects tax money, will they be exempt from this legislation?

IMHO, they should be exempted.

 

[mark_a]

You mean, their “agenda” to have the same legal rights as anyone else?

I was answering the question as posed by the OP. It is only my opinion that the pope’s teachings or even opinions concerning nonhomosexual issues are basically ignored by the news media. If you were to check Zenit.org you would see that the pope is not the gay basher the media presents him as.

Not long ago, many christians seemed to think slavery was compatible with christianity. I am guessing not too many do today.

You should meet some (not all) of the Baptists I grew up with.

Is there a reason why christian morals can change as time goes by?

Christianity is the leven in the bread. It works, at times, almost imperceptably.

 

[rlg94086]

Sorry about the title. Won’t do it again

I read the article over and over again. He isn’t condemning them but he is asking catholic organizations to discriminate them. So, hate the sin, love the sinner, don’t condemn, just discriminate?

Yes. The Church is against “unjust” discrimination, but some discrimination is just. For example, the Church will not allow homosexual couples to adopt, marry, etc. I don’t know the details of the legislation, but if it requires the Church to act in a way that is contrary to dogmatically held beliefs, there is no way the Church can accept.

 

[Darryl1958]

…
Not long ago, many Christians seemed to think slavery was compatible with Christianity. I am guessing not too many do today. Is there a reason why christian morals can change as time goes by?

Why yes there is, as a matter of fact. As the basic message of Moses and the 5000 year tradition of freedom that is the Bible becomes absorbed by the people who begin to follow its percepts, the morals of the people become uplifted.
Thank you for pointing this out. For less than two centuries ago, the whole world understood slavery to be a respectable and time-honored institution. Now today, directly as a result of Christians absorbing the basic message of Moses and the Bible, and proseytzing that message to the world, all but the most criminal among us recognize slavery as the evil it is.

Yes, StrawberryJam, you have made a very astute observation. I would submit to you though that it is not time that changes morals, but becoming ever closer to the Word of God, ever more attuned to the wisdom that God has given us through his Bible and through his Son.
Rome was not being built in a day, but is being built one stone at a time, with Christ as the foundation.

 

[JReducation]

I’m wondering if part of the problem that is happening today is not only that the world has changed, which it has, but also the fact that the focus of religious life has also changed. For those of us who are older, we grew up in a world where our parishes were staffed by priests and our schools were staffed by sisters or brothers. Everyone had a place.

Along came Vatican II and demands that religious return to the vision and mission of their founders. This means that we’re not going to find too many priests who are religious in parishes or too many religious brothers and sisters there either. Therefore, we don’t get to see them close up every day of the week as we did when we were kids. Let’s face it, how many of us spend our time at the homeless shelter, a pregnancy center, on the streets in the slums, in a soup kitchen or an oratory? Those are not common places where the lay person usually hangs out, unless he volunteers to serve alongside these religious.

That leaves secular priests in parishes. Having to fill in the gaps left open by the departure of religious from parishes and Catholic schools, many secular priests that belong to a diocese find themselves spread very thin. They run the parish and sometimes are the director of the parish school, even if someone else is the principal. They are responsible for every detail that is involved in parish ministry. These men spend so much time in administrative work that what they do does not appear very attractive to many men.

In the meantime, the religious men and women who are in the apostolate of their religious institutes are not very visible to the average person in the pew. Therefore, they are not going to attract the large numbers of the past. They don’t have the exposure. But that’s the price you have to pay if you want to be faithful to the founder. You will have to deal with smaller numbers.

Finally, for many young men, the idea of joining a religious order to be a religious, wait until you make perpetual vows before you can be ordained, only if the brothers in your community belief that Christ is calling you to be ordained, is not very attractive to many men. Many men want to join a religious order to a Dominican priest, Franciscan priest, Carmelite priest, and so forth. But these orders do not recruit that way. They are more interested in whether or not you have a call to live according to the rule and the spirit of the order, not whether you are called to be a priest. That will take care of itself down the road, if the superior calls you forward to Holy Orders. And if he does not, then you are still called to the consecrated life of the friar, monk or mendicant. In a very real sense, the return to the roots that male religious communities have undergone is also a step into the ambivalence. Nothing is guaranteed. Each day is new and your dreams and idea of how you would serve Christ and the Church may not be what Christ wants. Soon you will find out what he wants through your brothers.

Let’s face it. This kind of life is very hard. If you are called to be a priest in a diocese, you will be alone much of the time. You will be spread very thin. If you join a religious institute, you will have to remember that you vision of your life is not always compatible with the vision that Christ will reveal through the community and you’ll have to make a choice: follow what you hear or leave and look elsewhere. Either choice requires the courage to trust God and let him have fun in our lives.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[RobbyS]

I’m wondering if part of the problem that is happening today is not only that the world has changed, which it has, but also the fact that the focus of religious life has also changed. For those of us who are older, we grew up in a world where our parishes were staffed by priests and our schools were staffed by sisters or brothers. Everyone had a place.

Along came Vatican II and demands that religious return to the vision and mission of their founders. This means that we’re not going to find too many priests who are religious in parishes or too many religious brothers and sisters there either. Therefore, we don’t get to see them close up every day of the week as we did when we were kids. Let’s face it, how many of us spend our time at the homeless shelter, a pregnancy center, on the streets in the slums, in a soup kitchen or an oratory? Those are not common places where the lay person usually hangs out, unless he volunteers to serve alongside these religious.

That leaves secular priests in parishes. Having to fill in the gaps left open by the departure of religious from parishes and Catholic schools, many secular priests that belong to a diocese find themselves spread very thin. They run the parish and sometimes are the director of the parish school, even if someone else is the principal. They are responsible for every detail that is involved in parish ministry. These men spend so much time in administrative work that what they do does not appear very attractive to many men.

In the meantime, the religious men and women who are in the apostolate of their religious institutes are not very visible to the average person in the pew. Therefore, they are not going to attract the large numbers of the past. They don’t have the exposure. But that’s the price you have to pay if you want to be faithful to the founder. You will have to deal with smaller numbers.

Finally, for many young men, the idea of joining a religious order to be a religious, wait until you make perpetual vows before you can be ordained, only if the brothers in your community belief that Christ is calling you to be ordained, is not very attractive to many men. Many men want to join a religious order to a Dominican priest, Franciscan priest, Carmelite priest, and so forth. But these orders do not recruit that way. They are more interested in whether or not you have a call to live according to the rule and the spirit of the order, not whether you are called to be a priest. That will take care of itself down the road, if the superior calls you forward to Holy Orders. And if he does not, then you are still called to the consecrated life of the friar, monk or mendicant. In a very real sense, the return to the roots that male religious communities have undergone is also a step into the ambivalence. Nothing is guaranteed. Each day is new and your dreams and idea of how you would serve Christ and the Church may not be what Christ wants. Soon you will find out what he wants through your brothers.

Let’s face it. This kind of life is very hard. If you are called to be a priest in a diocese, you will be alone much of the time. You will be spread very thin. If you join a religious institute, you will have to remember that you vision of your life is not always compatible with the vision that Christ will reveal through the community and you’ll have to make a choice: follow what you hear or leave and look elsewhere. Either choice requires the courage to trust God and let him have fun in our lives.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Interesting look. When I was growing up, my church was served by the La Salette fathers, and what we had was basically a mission. The priests lived alone, although two other members were in neighboring towns. They rotated about every three years. My father knew all the priests and they confided in him! as he was as old as the parents. of most of them. The worst of the lot was the last I knew, Most unfriendly and unfortunately he was there when my Dad was dying of cancer. A bitter, bitter man who antagonized everyone. I think he had been important in the order, the head of the seminary, and being posted to a small church in East Texas was humiliating. But it was a lonely, lonely life.

 

[JReducation]

Interesting look. When I was growing up, my church was served by the La Salette fathers, and what we had was basically a mission. The priests lived alone, although two other members were in neighboring towns. They rotated about every three years. My father knew all the priests and they confided in him! as he was as old as the parents. of most of them. The worst of the lot was the last I knew, Most unfriendly and unfortunately he was there when my Dad was dying of cancer. A bitter, bitter man who antagonized everyone. I think he had been important in the order, the head of the seminary, and being posted to a small church in East Texas was humiliating. But it was a lonely, lonely life.

You are describing a sad reality that I discussed in several threads. Between 1800 and 1960 the bishops of the USA and other mission countries asked religious to take over the running of parishes. This meant that many religious men did not live within their religious communities or were able to follow the disciplines and schedules of religious life.

Some adapted to it by living as if they were diocesan priests, ignoring the spiritual life of that is essential to being a consecrated man of God. Others never adapted to it, because they wanted to be in their community. These men became very bitter. Unfortunately, the so called greatness of the Pre-Vatican II Church dessimated the lives of thousands of consecrated men by placing the needs of the laity over the call to the consecrated life. In the end, no one benefitted. These men left in the thousands and those who stayed were miserable and made others miserable.

That’s why so many religious communities of men today shy away from parishes, schools and hospitals, unless they were founded to do that. Most religious are not founded to do these ministries. The La Sallette, whom you mentioned, were founded to be missionaires, not parish priests. I can see how some of them were angry and probably depressed.

Let’s hope and pray that we will be more prudent and never demand that religious men or women engage in ministries that are in conflict with the vision and mission of their founder. It will only distroy them and hurt everyone caught in their path. Let us pray that God will send many of them and that he give us the grace to support their ministries, even if we have to make some sacrifices. God will not forget us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[RobbyS]

You are describing a sad reality that I discussed in several threads. Between 1800 and 1960 the bishops of the USA and other mission countries asked religious to take over the running of parishes. This meant that many religious men did not live within their religious communities or were able to follow the disciplines and schedules of religious life.

Some adapted to it by living as if they were diocesan priests, ignoring the spiritual life of that is essential to being a consecrated man of God. Others never adapted to it, because they wanted to be in their community. These men became very bitter. Unfortunately, the so called greatness of the Pre-Vatican II Church dessimated the lives of thousands of consecrated men by placing the needs of the laity over the call to the consecrated life. In the end, no one benefitted. These men left in the thousands and those who stayed were miserable and made others miserable.

That’s why so many religious communities of men today shy away from parishes, schools and hospitals, unless they were founded to do that. Most religious are not founded to do these ministries. The La Sallette, whom you mentioned, were founded to be missionaires, not parish priests. I can see how some of them were angry and probably depressed.

Let’s hope and pray that we will be more prudent and never demand that religious men or women engage in ministries that are in conflict with the vision and mission of their founder. It will only distroy them and hurt everyone caught in their path. Let us pray that God will send many of them and that he give us the grace to support their ministries, even if we have to make some sacrifices. God will not forget us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Well, our church was a kind of mission. It was in the great East Texas oil field and until 1931, when the field was discovered, there were very few Catholics, perhaps not more than a few hundred, in an area the size of Rhode Island/Connecticut. Afterwards maybe ten thousand. Very southern. Almost all our parishioners came with the oil business and those who served it. Nothing like the ethnic parishes of the north. A real mix. The priests were almost all Irishmen from Massachusetts. One had studied in Rome and he settled in nicely. Another had been a seminary professor, brilliant but he was a drunk. My favorite was an ordinary guy who was a great bowler. Another was a mousey type who got in trouble for being too friendly with a widow women. The Altar society ladies got him shipped out!

 

[latin_rite]

with what we know today there is a lot more to these issues than just the xx vs xy what with all the other variations there are. the big issue here is not to do with the chromosomes anyway and if onee were to actually pull their head out of the sand and do a bit of research one would find that the transsex person is a neurological intersexed condition and not just some psycho sicko who wants their willy chopped off. it is very much a woman (brain) in a mans body or viceversa and medical science does back this up. as the cross gendering happens well before birth why should they be denied the medical practises of fixing as much as possible the defect as any other prebirth condition is allowed to have.

It’s more of a mental condition than a medical one. I have no doubt that a transexual really believes he is a woman. Just like a mental patient really believes he is napolean or superman. Doesn’t mean that we should let them run france or jump off tall buildings.

 

[JReducation]

with what we know today there is a lot more to these issues than just the xx vs xy what with all the other variations there are. the big issue here is not to do with the chromosomes anyway and if onee were to actually pull their head out of the sand and do a bit of research one would find that the transsex person is a neurological intersexed condition and not just some psycho sicko who wants their willy chopped off. it is very much a woman (brain) in a mans body or viceversa and medical science does back this up. as the cross gendering happens well before birth why should they be denied the medical practises of fixing as much as possible the defect as any other prebirth condition is allowed to have.

The moral problem here is that you cannot violate the laws of nature. If a person is born an intact male or female, sexual reassignment surgery is mutilation of the body. Mutilation of the body is not morally necessary or justifiable. Even in a post-mortem the brain of a mail in a gender reassigned body remains the brain of a male or a female, depending on how he or she was conceived. It is not a matter of the a brain in the wrong body.

While the Church does not deny the power of the mind, she cannot justify as moral gender reassignment when the person is biologically of a specific gender. The medical community is not in full agreement on this theory that a man’s mind is trapped in a woman’s brain or the other way around. Unfortuantely, the psyche is something that cannot be observed. What we observe is human behavior and human physiology. In these cases we see behavior that is inconsistent with physiology.

The Church, in her mercy, acknowledges that human behavior is often beyond the control of the individual, meaning that it’s not always a choice. But she cannot say that it is justifiable to adopt biology to complement behavior and emotions. The best that she can offer is the hope that a person who lives with his or her situation with great faith in God’s mercy and uses those emotions for the practice of charity will receive the grace to fulfill God’s will in their lives.

Whether it is physical medicine or mental healthcare, the Church realizes that much of what we believe that we know is not actual knowledge, but speculation based on pure observation. We do not know if we will discover another means of helping these persons to find harmony in their lives or when it will happen. We only know that the medical and mental health community are currently working on limited knowledge about a very complex issue.

It is a principle of moral theology and philosophical ethics that one does not act when their is a doubt that the action is is justifiable. St. Augustine argued that we do not act when there is doubt.

To reassign gender is a violation of natural law. It is to change the outward appearance of an individual. You cannot change the person’s entire anatomy and physiology to make them a true male or femail without killing the patient. This is not considered a corrective measure. It is really cosmetic surgery. It begs the question whether it is naturally necessary.

Catholic moral theology is grounded in truth revealed through natural law. Having said that, the Church also recognizes that much research has to be done on this subject and hopes that the scientific community will continue to find answers that it can support quantitatively and qualitatively. For this reason, the Church’s position on reassignment surgery protects the dignity of the body until it is proven that the body can be altered without violating that dignity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[centurionguard]

What is happening in Britain regrettably has taken place in Canada years ago.
Canada’s Supreme Court has already dictated legislated laws in the country making Homosexuals and Lesbians equal with the rest of citizens. Homosexuals can adopt children, get married and receive the exact same federal tax benefits and monetary support as heterosexual couples who are legally married. However their are federal laws in place that exempt Catholic priests, Jewish rabbi’s, and other Christian ministers from being bound to marry homosexual couples in their church’s and synagogues.

In Canada their are homosexual lobbyist still trying to pressure federal political constituents to have the religious freedoms exemption laws removed by the Supreme Court. More and more as years go by, religious freedoms are being eroded by country rulers who hypocritically fly under the proud flag of democracy which really in the end turns out to be communism in disguise. Is it really that cynical to say that you do not trust your own government anymore? Some wonder just how long it will be before the religious freedoms and exemption laws will cease to exist. Politicians always grease the wheel that squeaks the most. Why is it that the (“Silent Majority”) never speaks up until it’s too late.

 

[aussie_jaz]

It’s more of a mental condition than a medical one. I have no doubt that a transexual really believes he is a woman. Just like a mental patient really believes he is napolean or superman. Doesn’t mean that we should let them run france or jump off tall buildings.

psychological problems come about in the transsex person due to the attitudes of the ignorant society around them which are mostly based on the completely biased religious studies conducted from that view point of head in the sand. transsexualism itself is not a psychological problem the reasons behind having to go through a psychological program is to weed out those transgenderists who do have a psychological problem. there is ample evidence to show it is a legitimate medical defect not a mental one.

 

[aussie_jaz]

The moral problem here is that you cannot violate the laws of nature. If a person is born an intact male or female, sexual reassignment surgery is mutilation of the body. Mutilation of the body is not morally necessary or justifiable. Even in a post-mortem the brain of a mail in a gender reassigned body remains the brain of a male or a female, depending on how he or she was conceived. It is not a matter of the a brain in the wrong body.

those post motem mri’s show the brain differences of the genders and show the male to female transsex brain to be in line with those of a non transsex woman and viceversa

While the Church does not deny the power of the mind, she cannot justify as moral gender reassignment when the person is biologically of a specific gender. The medical community is not in full agreement on this theory that a man’s mind is trapped in a woman’s brain or the other way around. Unfortuantely, the psyche is something that cannot be observed. What we observe is human behavior and human physiology. In these cases we see behavior that is inconsistent with physiology.

no they dont agree because many read what was written decades ago and go no further in researching the findings that have been coming out since , much of which is quite damning. what is observed is the natural neurological differences between the sexes and the transsexed clearly on the side of their true gender and not that of their birth sex.

The Church, in her mercy, acknowledges that human behavior is often beyond the control of the individual, meaning that it’s not always a choice. But she cannot say that it is justifiable to adopt biology to complement behavior and emotions. The best that she can offer is the hope that a person who lives with his or her situation with great faith in God’s mercy and uses those emotions for the practice of charity will receive the grace to fulfill God’s will in their lives.

but the biology of the person is beyond their control. the best she can offer is to accept the findings of modern science and not hide behind documents created decades ago by a man who was crusading against sex reassignment surgery based on his own prejudice against such people who require it.

Whether it is physical medicine or mental healthcare, the Church realizes that much of what we believe that we know is not actual knowledge, but speculation based on pure observation. We do not know if we will discover another means of helping these persons to find harmony in their lives or when it will happen. We only know that the medical and mental health community are currently working on limited knowledge about a very complex issue.

while waiting for another means of truly helping these people why not accept the current treatment including surgery which has a 97% success rate at helping these people become fully contributing to and partaking of society.

It is a principle of moral theology and philosophical ethics that one does not act when their is a doubt that the action is is justifiable. St. Augustine argued that we do not act when there is doubt.

to not act when there is doubt would be not acting with almost everything there is as everything has doubts concerning it from one angle or another. a better way to look at such matters would be to look at the benifits to the individual and how to achieve a better outcome based on each predicament and with the 97% success rate it would be far more moral and ethical to accept this as the way to go.

To reassign gender is a violation of natural law. It is to change the outward appearance of an individual. You cannot change the person’s entire anatomy and physiology to make them a true male or femail without killing the patient. This is not considered a corrective measure. It is really cosmetic surgery. It begs the question whether it is naturally necessary.

first it isnt the gender being reassigned its the sex. treating that pre birth defect is no more violating natural law than treating any other pre birth defect.yes it is changing the outward appearance to match the persons core identity.

Catholic moral theology is grounded in truth revealed through natural law. Having said that, the Church also recognizes that much research has to be done on this subject and hopes that the scientific community will continue to find answers that it can support quantitatively and qualitatively. For this reason, the Church’s position on reassignment surgery protects the dignity of the body until it is proven that the body can be altered without violating that dignity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

the problem there is that its not willing to look at any research past the writings of that one prejudiced person who was at one time a vatican adviser. much research has been done since but the church isnt interested in looking in to it so as a result many good minded people are unecessarily being lost from the church.

 

[latin_rite]

psychological problems come about in the transsex person due to the attitudes of the ignorant society around them which are mostly based on the completely biased religious studies conducted from that view point of head in the sand. transsexualism itself is not a psychological problem the reasons behind having to go through a psychological program is to weed out those transgenderists who do have a psychological problem. there is ample evidence to show it is a legitimate medical defect not a mental one.

So a man…Who goes around thinking he is a woman. Doesn’t have psychological problems Because he believes he is something he is clearly not. But because of people’s attitude towards them based on " the completely biased religious studies conducted from that view point of head in the sand"? I don’t know if its worth carrying on this conversation with you. Because it seems like any study that agrees with is a independent extensive study. Conducted by open minded scientist. While any study that doesn;t back up your theories. Are Done by intolerant religious bigots Who only focus on what they want to see.
You see we can both produce all the studies google will let us find. But we’ll just be going in circles. But the fact of the matter is this. If someone is born a man. then he is a man full stop. No amount of p.c jargon and rhetoric will change that.

 

[Stylites]

psychological problems come about in the transsex person due to the attitudes of the ignorant society around them which are mostly based on the completely biased religious studies . . .

That is an outlook doomed to failure: “If only everyone would applaud my sin and stop saying that my sin is a sin, then I will be able to feel good about myself.”

People who sin do not feel bad because of what other people say about their sin; they feel bad because the voice of their own conscience says their deeds are wrong.

.

 

[StrawberryJam]

What is happening in Britain regrettably has taken place in Canada years ago.
Canada’s Supreme Court has already dictated legislated laws in the country making Homosexuals and Lesbians equal with the rest of citizens. Homosexuals can adopt children, get married and receive the exact same federal tax benefits and monetary support as heterosexual couples who are legally married. However their are federal laws in place that exempt Catholic priests, Jewish rabbi’s, and other Christian ministers from being bound to marry homosexual couples in their church’s and synagogues.

In Canada their are homosexual lobbyist still trying to pressure federal political constituents to have the religious freedoms exemption laws removed by the Supreme Court. More and more as years go by, religious freedoms are being eroded by country rulers who hypocritically fly under the proud flag of democracy which really in the end turns out to be communism in disguise. Is it really that cynical to say that you do not trust your own government anymore? Some wonder just how long it will be before the religious freedoms and exemption laws will cease to exist. Politicians always grease the wheel that squeaks the most. Why is it that the (“Silent Majority”) never speaks up until it’s too late.

Again, since Canada taxpayer dollars are used to support your Church it is not surprising.

I just read through a bunch of threads in the politcal forum here, and it seems there are many people who are very opposed to government handouts there. If that is representative belief amoung catholics then why don’t they also feel the same way about their Church getting government handouts?