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JulianN
Guest
You’d be scandalized by a Catholic attending a seder? (That was the question)
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
We are permitted by the Church to attend Passover meals with our Jewish neighbors and end-of-Ramadan meals with our Muslim neighbors. The only caveat is we don’t participate in saying any prayers that go against Catholic teaching; we are supposed to maintain a reverent silence during those.
This has been explained by a Catholic Answers apologist:
So if you are personally scandalized by someone going to an end-of-Ramadan meal, that’s your personal issue based on your personal preference. It’s not something the Catholic Church has a problem with.
You said “non-Catholic service” which is very broad and would include many, many types of situations and leave open the question of what “service”, why was it being held, why the Catholic was there, and what the Catholic did as part of the service (e.g. did he recite prayers to Mohammed or did he just sit there in silence while his host prayed). As Salibi explained, the Muslim end-of-Ramadan meal isn’t a “service” anyway.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Would that apply to a Catholic attending a Passover Seder as well?
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Passover Seder can’t be considered “contrary to the truth” given that Christians accept the OT story of the Passover and Jesus himself ate the Passover meal and linked it to his own sacrifice. However, in the past there have been concerns about both religious indifferentism and Catholics misappropriating Jewish culture. In some cases, church groups wanted to do something like put on their own version of the Passover meal in the church hall, often with no Jewish people involved, and that I believe was forbidden.
As far as I know, Catholics are allowed to go to a Passover Seder if they’re invited by the Jewish people putting it on and if the Catholic doesn’t participate in praying the associated prayers.
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IanM
Guest
In light of this, where might all this stand?
"Archbishop Nichols is initiated in Zoroastrian rituals
Tis_Bearself
Patron
With all due respect, that website does not seem like a reliable source at all.
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Genesis315
Guest
It’s not per se contrary to the divine law as far as I know (I am not familiar with all the prayers), so no problem on that front. The issue would be the risk of scandal of indifferentism outweighing any potential benefit. Any confusion of it with the Eucharistic liturgy would also need to be strictly avoided. It would be a case by case basis.
Traditionally, the Church as a rule forbade any such interfaith gatherings considering the risks of indifferentism and witness against the uniqueness of the Catholic faith as the one true religion as too great (exceptions being made on a case by case basis). Now, they are more generally permitted with the caveat that the risk of scandal of indifferentism is avoided or not too great (at least that is “de jure,” de facto any risk to witness to indifferentism rarely seems to even be considered).
The fruits and pros and cons of each approach can certainly be weighed and debated.
FYI, here’s how Vatican II put this principle:
Traditionally, the Church as a rule forbade any such interfaith gatherings considering the risks of indifferentism and witness against the uniqueness of the Catholic faith as the one true religion as too great (exceptions being made on a case by case basis). Now, they are more generally permitted with the caveat that the risk of scandal of indifferentism is avoided or not too great (at least that is “de jure,” de facto any risk to witness to indifferentism rarely seems to even be considered).
The fruits and pros and cons of each approach can certainly be weighed and debated.
FYI, here’s how Vatican II put this principle:
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IanM
Guest
In that case, I await rebuttal of what it alleges.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I don’t waste my time rebutting questionable sources.
Muting the thread now as this discussion is straying far from the original topic and I am also not interested in policing the behavior of clerics far outside my area who engaged in some ecumenical practices. Their superiors in the Church can handle that without my needing to be concerned with it.
Muting the thread now as this discussion is straying far from the original topic and I am also not interested in policing the behavior of clerics far outside my area who engaged in some ecumenical practices. Their superiors in the Church can handle that without my needing to be concerned with it.
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billsherman
Guest
I’ll be sure to let my Bishop know that our attendance at a Seder via Zoom this year scandalized you.
Not to pile on here, but you’re just flat out wrong. Ecumenicism is a good thing. You should step out of your Catholic bubble a little, and recognize that there are other ways of doing things. You don’t have to replace your Catholicism with them, but you do have to recognize that Catholics are but a minority in this world. Understand the rest of it.
Learn what Muslims do, what they believe, and how they do things. Don’t rely on what people tell you about them. That’s how prejudice and false beliefs appear.
As I always remind my students: no matter what your religious beliefs are, the majority of the world thinks you’re wrong.
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JulianN
Guest
If I allege that the sky is brown and the grass is red, no one really needs to spend their time rebutting a clear falsehood. This site is similarly ridiculous – here’s a quick look at its articles:
JPII Participates in a Zoroastrian Ritual
Deity Olokun Worshiped at the Assisi Basilica
Benedict XVI Initiated in Pagan Rituals
Archbishop of Westminster Venerates Hindu Deities
JPII Blessed by a Hindu Religious Woman
Pagan Divinities Adored in Assisi
JPII Blessed by a Shaman
There is nothing reputable about this source.
JPII Participates in a Zoroastrian Ritual
Deity Olokun Worshiped at the Assisi Basilica
Benedict XVI Initiated in Pagan Rituals
Archbishop of Westminster Venerates Hindu Deities
JPII Blessed by a Hindu Religious Woman
Pagan Divinities Adored in Assisi
JPII Blessed by a Shaman
There is nothing reputable about this source.
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puer.dei
Guest
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Genesis315
Guest
To be fair, this isn’t ecumenism, which is about seeking the corporate unity of the baptized. And learning about non-Christian religions is one thing, common participation in their rites and prayers is another. Here’s how Cardinal Kasper (who was in charge of ecumenism for a long time and is generally more “ecumenical” than most Catholics put it):
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...pc_chrstuni_doc_20020107_peace-kasper_en.html
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gam197
Guest
I too have attended many different protestant events often through invitation by friends but that is not the same. He is a Cardinal in the church and publicly stating about another religion so that can bring confusion therefore there is reason for concern.
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billsherman
Guest
What confusion?
The Church is unequivocal that “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day” (CCC 841).
This has been echoed and emphasized by Popes and Bishops for much of the last century. For examples see: St. John Paul II’s World Day of Prayer for Peace, and Pope Francis’ Document of Human Fraternity for World Peace and Living Together.
There is nothing confusing about the Cardinal’s actions. There is nothing confusing about attending a Seder. Maybe you don’t like it, but it is permitted, and there is nothing whatsoever wrong with it. Period.
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gam197
Guest
If the pope or a cardinal celebrate Ramadan then it bring public attention, that is why it becomes problematic.
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billsherman
Guest
By celebrate, do you mean recite Islamic prayers? If so, then that would be strange at best.
But you can’t mean that, because that didn’t happen in this case. Or in any case. The Cardinal’s actions were perfectly permissible, and aren’t confusing in the slightest. Neither is attending a Seder, which I’ve done many times. As does my Bishop.
It sounds like you, and others, just don’t like it when it happens. That isn’t confusion, it’s just you trying to claim your personal distaste holds some degree of authority. It doesn’t. I challenge you to attend a Seder next Passover.
It wasn’t confusing when Jesus did it, and it won’t be confusing when you do it. You can come to the lovely one I attend.
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gam197
Guest
I am looking at the word “celebrate” in the article and it is the headline on a number of articles on the internet. Also it says he partook on this particular meal which I assume has a prayer with it but maybe not. He has done this since 2017 according to article. It is a religious observance.
This is from wikipedia
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puer.dei
Guest
“Assume.” “Maybe.”
Do you have any actual evidence that the Cardinal, not to mention the Protestant and Jewish leaders who attended, participated in Muslim prayers?
How would you like to be accused of something based on “assume” and “maybe?”
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billsherman
Guest
None of that explains what you find confusing. I think you just don’t like when Catholics attend interfaith services, ceremonies, or such.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with doing so. I attend a Seder every year (via Zoom this year!), and so does my Bishop. There are a very small number of Jewish prayers recited. You just don’t say them. No one will notice, or care. Nothing confusing.
As I mentioned above, I will happily get you invited to the Seder I attend each year. We’d love to have you! In fact, at this particular Seder, there are Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists, and at least one Pagan. It’s a remarkable mix of people who recognize that a person’s inherent goodness is not related to their creed.
Again, it wasn’t confusing when Jesus attended Seders, so it isn’t confusing when Cardinals, Bishops, etc. attend Iftars or Seders.
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