British "Cardinal Celebrates Ramadan at Home"

[gam197]

“Assume.” “Maybe.”
Do you have any actual evidence that the Cardinal, not to mention the Protestant and Jewish leaders who attended, participated in Muslim prayers?
How would you like to be accused of something based on “assume” and “maybe?”

I don’t know if there is a prayer said over the food or not but article does say he celebrated and I can understand that. If one goes to a birthday party, they are celebrating someone’s birthday. Same with this meal, it is a religious observant.

That to me is different from an ecumenical celebration say between Christian who believe is the same doctrine more or less.

As far as what any other religion or religious leaders do or don’t do, that is up to them.

 

[gam197]

None of that explains what you find confusing. I think you just don’t like when Catholics attend interfaith services, ceremonies, or such.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with doing so. I attend a Seder every year (via Zoom this year!), and so does my Bishop. There are a very small number of Jewish prayers recited. You just don’t say them. No one will notice, or care. Nothing confusing.

As I mentioned above, I will happily get you invited to the Seder I attend each year. We’d love to have you! In fact, at this particular Seder, there are Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists, and at least one Pagan. It’s a remarkable mix of people who recognize that a person’s inherent goodness is not related to their creed.

Again, it wasn’t confusing when Jesus attended Seders, so it isn’t confusing when Cardinals, Bishops, etc. attend Iftars or Seders.

This to me is not like eating with thieves or adulterers. This is about a religion that is massive in population and crushes other religions and at times kills Christians.

I can see attending interfaith dialogue to see what is common ground such as charity.

 

[ImQuiet]

This is about a religion that is massive in population and crushes other religions and at times kills Christians.

If you want to play that card then you’d have to acknowledge some of the bloody history behind Christianity and Catholicism as well, in which case I’d wonder why any good Muslim would dare sit with a Christian, going by your logic.

I’m in agreement with @billsherman, I’m not sure why this is a confusing event. This article just reads like an outrage piece to me.

 

[gam197]

If you want to play that card then you’d have to acknowledge some of the bloody history behind Christianity and Catholicism as well, in which case I’d wonder why any good Muslim would dare sit with a Christian, going by your logic.

I’m agreement with @billsherman, I’m not sure why this is a confusing event. This article just reads like an outrage piece to me.

Muslims were not innocent participants. Past history has a great deal of bad stuff in many religions including non religious. We are in today and still people professing to be of the muslim faith kill Christians.

 

[ImQuiet]

We are in today and still people professing to be of the muslim faith kill Christians.

Christians kill non-Christians too. Look up the Ilaga.

 

[gam197]

Christians kill non-Christians too. Look up the Ilaga

Can’t find it - Liaga. Is this a catholic group you are aledging kills non-Christian people.

 

[ImQuiet]

Is this a catholic group you are aledging kills non-Christian people.

Not alleging. They did.
They’re called ILaga. Not Liaga.

 

[gam197]

Not alleging. They did.
They’re called ILaga. Not Liaga.

They were an extremist goup from 1970 and they were crushed. The fear from what I have read is that there may be a revival.

For that one group I could look up and post probably 100 articles over the last years on violence by people professing the muslim faith and attacks against Christians.

 

[ImQuiet]

Then should I refer you to the Army of God and incidents related to their violent philosophy?
We can do this all day. Islam and Christianity both have ugly portions of their history that their followers don’t like talking about. Both have extremist sects that their followers don’t like talking about. It doesn’t mean that Christians and Muslims are violent extremists who want to kill pro-choice people (referring to the Army of God here) or non-Muslims.

Edit: I should mention that the Army of God is still considered an active terrorist group. They’re still around.

 

[gam197]

Then should I refer you to the Army of God and incidents related to their violent philosophy?

Army of God in not catholic. Do they kill people? Please be specific to the catholic faith. There are 100’s of articles of people professing to be muslim and killing others today.

They are not equal as you would have me believe.

 

[ImQuiet]

Army of God in not catholic. Please be specific to catholic faith. There are 100’s of articles of people professing to be muslim and killing others today.

Um…
To quote you.

We are in today and still people professing to be of the muslim faith kill Christians.

Is this a catholic group you are aledging kills non-Christian people.

Changing things up a little, yeah? You asked for Christians, so I gave you Christians. Don’t get all fussy because I did what you asked,

As far as modern Catholic terrorist groups, there’s none that I could find.
There’s John Earl and that one Benedictine who firebombed a clinic whose name escapes me at the moment, but I can’t think of any specifically Catholic domestic terrorist incidents outside of that. There are a few notable incidents in Northern Ireland where some Catholics participated in the fiery practice or detonating petrol bombs, according to the GTD.

So yes, according to this new criteria you have randomly decided to introduce, Islam has more of a terrorist problem than Catholicism.

Of course, we are speaking about the minority groups of such religions, which I feel is relevant to point out. Not all Christians are terrorists, not all Muslims are terrorists, and there’s virtually zero Catholic terrorists. I still think this article is a silly piece of writing trying to stir up some outrage (and judging by this thread, it did a pretty good job of that.

Edit: To put this another way, the Catholic Church has a bit of an anti-semitism problem stemming from some extremist groups, both historically and today. Should we condemn all Catholics for that?

 

[billsherman]

This to me is not like eating with thieves or adulterers. This is about a religion that is massive in population and crushes other religions and at times kills Christians.

Yeah, just what I thought. You’re not concerned about “confusion.” You’re just using that as a code word to condemn the perfectly valid and acceptable thing the Cardinal did because you don’t like it.

In a way you’re right though. These particular people undoubtedly aren’t thieves and adulterers. They are normal human beings, just like you. Their choice of religion does not make them any worse than you are.

I can see attending interfaith dialogue to see what is common ground such as charity.

Great. But you can, and should, do far more than that. How exactly are we supposed to reduce or stop the interfaith violence you rightly condemn unless we take some actions to acknowledge the inherent value of EVERY human? By refusing to share a table with people different from us, we are indirectly saying that they aren’t worth our time. That’s completely wrong and I’m glad this Cardinal shows us that directly.

Our world is full of amazing diversity. People of different races, nationalities, and yes, religions. Embrace that and learn from it. Build bridges, not walls. Just like Pope Francis reminds us.

 

[gam197]

Changing things up a little, yeah? You asked for Christians, so I gave you Christians. Don’t get all fussy because I did what you asked,

As far as modern Catholic terrorist groups, there’s none that I could find.
There’s John Earl and that one Benedictine who firebombed a clinic whose name escapes me at the moment, but I can’t think of any specifically Catholic domestic terrorist incidents outside of that. There are a few notable incidents in Northern Ireland where some Catholics participated in the fiery practice or detonating petrol bombs, according to the GTD.

So yes, according to this new criteria you have randomly decided to introduce, Islam has more of a terrorist problem than Catholicism.

Of course, we are speaking about the minority groups of such religions, which I feel is relevant to point out. Not all Christians are terrorists, not all Muslims are terrorists, and there’s virtually zero Catholic terrorists. I still think this article is a silly piece of writing trying to stir up some outrage (and judging by this thread, it did a pretty good job of that.

Edit: To put this another way, the Catholic Church has a bit of an anti-semitism problem stemming from some extremist groups, both historically and today. Should we condemn all Catholics for that?

Antisemitism today, again where? It comes up that catholics are terrorists and now anti-semitism is a problem. I just don’t think things can be thrown out there. If there are examples, then post but just can’t randomly say catholics are killing muslims.

Here are a few articles on muslims

https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/482859-a-militant-group-you-may-not-know-kills-hundreds-of-christians-every

Persecution of Christians 'coming close to genocide' in Middle East – report | Christianity | The Guardian

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...7d218e-14e1-11ea-80d6-d0ca7007273f_story.html

I am not saying that all muslims are involved either but to make muslims and catholic equal in violence today seems to be an untruth.

 

[gam197]

Yeah, just what I thought. You’re not concerned about “confusion.” You’re just using that as a code word to condemn the perfectly valid and acceptable thing the Cardinal did because you don’t like it.

In a way you’re right though. These particular people undoubtedly aren’t thieves and adulterers. They are normal human beings, just like you. Their choice of religion does not make them any worse than you are.

No one said that they are any different from anyone else but their choice of religion leaves much. We can pray for them. I invite dialogue and meetings between religions to find common ground and there is some common ground but to participate in a false religion service, no.

 

[ImQuiet]

Antisemitism today, again where? It comes up that catholics are terrorists and now anti-semitism is a problem

In the EU and NA mostly to my knowledge.

I never insinuated that Catholics are terrorists. Nice try though.
And anti-semitism is a modern problem. Not a uniquely Catholic one, but then again, terrorism isn’t a uniquely Muslim problem. I was offering it as an analogy.

then post but just can’t randomly say catholics are killing muslims.

Ah ah ah, you initially were discussing Christians in your post, not Catholics. Need me to quote you again? I even said that there aren’t any Catholic terror groups that I could find, so I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that I think Catholics have some sort of vendetta against Muslims.
Look, Islamic terrorism is definitely a problem with Islam, and a not insignificant one, but we can’t use that as an excuse to stir up outrage of what can reasonably seen as a harmless event promoting interfaith relations. Sounds pretty Christlike to me, all things considered.

there is some common ground but to participate in a false religion service, no.

Do you understand what Iftar is? I don’t so I looked it up lol.
It’s literally just breaking a fast. That’s the entirety of this ritual. It’s just eating, and in this case, talking about faith-related things. Seems like a nice occasion to me.

 

[gam197]

In the EU and NA mostly to my knowledge.

I never insinuated that Catholics are terrorists. Nice try though.
And anti-semitism is a modern problem. Not a uniquely Catholic one, but then again, terrorism isn’t a uniquely Muslim problem. I was offering it as an analogy.

No you brought it up with this quote from post #44

Christians kill non-Christians too. Look up the Ilaga.

post #51

To put this another way, the Catholic Church has a bit of an anti-semitism problem stemming from some extremist groups, both historically and today. Should we condemn all Catholics for that?

Liaga was an extreme catholic type group that killed muslims in the Phillipines.in the 1970’s.

Do you understand what Iftar is?

Yes. I looked it up too. Ramadan is a very important part of the muslim faith. This meal is used to break the fast. I get it but don’t see the point in participating in anything to do with Ramadan. They fast for a whole month from sunrise to sunset.

From wikipedia…

The spiritual rewards ( thawab ) of fasting are believed to be multiplied during Ramadan.[23] Accordingly, Muslims refrain not only from food and drink, but also tobacco products, sexual relations, and sinful behavior,[24][25] devoting themselves instead to salat (prayer) and recitation of the Quran.[26][27]

 

[ImQuiet]

This was an extreme catholic type group that killed muslims in the Phillipines.

…Which I explicitly offered as an example of Christians killing non-Christians. I’m sorry if that gave you the impression that I was accusing all Catholics of being terrorists by linking them, they were the first extremist group that came to mind.
I even said in the post just above this one that I couldn’t find evidence of modern Catholic terror groups, which is what you wanted me to provide.

I get it but don’t see the point in participating in anything to do with Ramadan

Changing your tune again? You’ve tried to justify this point by referencing Islamic terrorism, just to keep this in perspective.
But, since you apparently now “get it”, then I don’t see a reason to criticize the Cardinal here? Iftar might not be your thing, but he seemed to be having a grand old time in the videos I saw of it.

 

[gam197]

Changing your tune again? You’ve tried to justify this point by referencing Islamic terrorism, just to keep this in perspective.
But, since you apparently now “get it”, then I don’t see a reason to criticize the Cardinal here? Iftar might not be your thing, but he seemed to be having a grand old time in the videos I saw of it.

I am not changing my opinion. “I get it” refers to what this meal Iftar is, it is to break the month long Ramaden fast.

 

[ImQuiet]

So just to be clear, you don’t support the Cardinal attending this Iftar due to Islamic terrorism? Or is there something I’m missing?

 

[gam197]

So just to be clear, you don’t support the Cardinal attending this Iftar due to Islamic terrorism? Or is there something I’m missing?

Yes, there is something missing.I see Islam as a false religion and wonder why a catholic cardinal would "celebrate"publicly one of the holiest holidays for muslims, Ramadan by partaking in Iftar.