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Feanor2
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I feel you! It’s Friday. You need to get this cleared up before tomorrow! I would get on contacting your priest ASAP to ask if it’s OK!!
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Humility
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I’m pretty sure that a Cardinal’s goal is not to portray a non-Christian religion as salvific. Also, Nostra Aetete does mention Islam specifically. And not in a negative way.
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billsherman
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Is it just me, or is there a noticeable “Islam is bad” subtext to this thread? There appears to be quick condemnation of fraternal celebration with Muslims, but the same with Jews gets a big shrug.
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RolandThompsonGunner
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It’s barely even subtext. Of course, Islam is “bad” in the sense that it’s not true, but that doesn’t mean that Muslims are bad people or that we can’t share kind gestures or acknowledge the things we do agree on.
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Feanor2
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Yeah, that’s pretty much it.Feanor2:
Is it just me, or is there a noticeable “Islam is bad” subtext to this thread? There appears to be quick condemnation of fraternal celebration with Muslims, but the same with Jews gets a big shrug.
The OP would be easier to discuss if folks would just come out and say, “Islam is ESPECIALLY bad.”
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Crusader13
New member
No that’s just what you are reading into the posts. Nobody said Islam nor Muslims nor Jews were bad.billsherman:
Yeah, that’s pretty much it.Feanor2:
Is it just me, or is there a noticeable “Islam is bad” subtext to this thread? There appears to be quick condemnation of fraternal celebration with Muslims, but the same with Jews gets a big shrug.
The OP would be easier to discuss if folks would just come out and say, “Islam is ESPECIALLY bad.”
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TMC
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Subtext? Its not a subtext.
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billsherman
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So? People get to chose their religion in this world, and they also get to chose where they live. I’m not sure why this is a problem.
That isn’t charitable or fair. Or true for that matter.
Crusader13
New member
It is if you don’t want to live under Sharia law. And yes people can choose their religion, I didn’t imply that everybody must be Catholic against their will.
Do you believe that Islam teaches error with regards to ones salvation?
How so?! If you’ve studied Islam then you’d realize that like Catholicism, they believe they are the one true faith and only means of salvation.
It is their goal to spread Islam to every nation and person on earth. Meaning they aren’t going to stop converting a nation just because that nation has Judeo-Christian values. Islam teaches that Jesus is not God and not necessary for salvation. So why do you naïvely believe that Islam is going to stop teaching that Christianity is in error.
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billsherman
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I’m sorry.
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Lost_sheep2
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Who is “they”? Not all Muslims have the goal of invading the West and imposing Islam on us. My best friend is a religious Muslim, we get along just fine and can even have civil conversations about religion. And at least of the Muslims that I know (quite a few) she’s not the exception to the rule. I understand there’s been a lot of problems particularly in some parts of Europe with Muslim immigrants raping white girls and doing other horrible things but that sort of thing isn’t happening where I live (not at a higher rate than the wider population anyway) and there are a lot of Muslim immigrants here. A lot. I can’t walk down the street without seeing hijabi women and my school is something like 40% Muslim. It’s not charitable or accurate to say that all Muslims coming to Christian/Western countries are not willing to ‘coexist’ with us, particularly the young ones who were raised here and have absorbed a lot of our values. Look we can agree that Islam as a religion is hostile to Christianity and so are a great many Muslims, particularly in hardline Islamic countries. But it isn’t charitable or accurate to say this of all of “them” who do indeed live peacefully alongside Christians.
Khaled Abou El Fadl writes:
‘For five years or more now, a beautifully printed English translation of the Qur’an has been distributed for free in nearly every Islamic centre in the United States. This Trojan-horse translation is found in every Muslim bookstore and in every English-speaking Islamic centre. The authors of the translation are professors at the University of Medina, and the book is printed, no expenses spared, in Saudi Arabia. On the very first page of the printed text is a certificate of authentication and approval by the late ‘Abd al-‘Aziz Bin Bazz, the “Head of the Ministry for Islamic Research, Legal Opinions, Preaching and Guidance”. Interestingly enough, Bin Bazz did not know a word of English, but he authenticated the text nonetheless. To be fair, however, the translation is a faithful reproduction of Bin Bazz’s views with all their idiosyncrasies.’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam – a Conference of the Books’).
El Fadl is referring to the translation of Al-Hilali and Khan. Here’s an example of their work:
‘Guide us to the Straight Way. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger ( such as the Jews ), nor of those who went astray ( such as the Christians ). (Al-Fatiha: 6-7 – my emphasis).
No doubt about; this is a hostile statement.
However, the translation is misleading.
Note the parenthetical interjections. Parentheses are not found in the Qur’an itself. They exist only in translations, and serve as clarifications of the text – or as expressions of the translator’s personal opinion, or prejudice.
‘Al-Fatiha’ (‘The Opening’) is regarded as a precise summary of the Qur’anic message. It is very important in Islamic worship, being an obligatory part of the daily prayer; repeated many times during the day. This is Professor M.A.S Abdel Haleem’s translation:
‘In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to God, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’ (‘The Qur’an’).
There is no hostility to Jews or Christians here.
(Continued).
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There is absolutely no requirement for a Christian or a Jew to embrace Islam – to become a Muslim.
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) tells us: ‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).
And this is what He has to say about Jews and Christians:
‘Those who believe and do good deeds are the best of creation . Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever . God is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina 7 -8; my emphasis ).
Take especial note of these verses. It has been my privilege to know – and to love – many Christians who were shining examples of Christian love and good practice. These verses assure me that they shall have their reward in Heaven. These verses assure me that every Christian, and every Jew, who carries the Exalted in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward. This is a solemn promise, and the Exalted does not renege on His promises.
If this is what the Exalted has to say about the ‘best of creation’, what right does any Muslim have to exhibit hostility towards them - simply for being a Christian or a Jew?
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) tells us: ‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).
And this is what He has to say about Jews and Christians:
‘Those who believe and do good deeds are the best of creation . Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever . God is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina 7 -8; my emphasis ).
Take especial note of these verses. It has been my privilege to know – and to love – many Christians who were shining examples of Christian love and good practice. These verses assure me that they shall have their reward in Heaven. These verses assure me that every Christian, and every Jew, who carries the Exalted in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward. This is a solemn promise, and the Exalted does not renege on His promises.
If this is what the Exalted has to say about the ‘best of creation’, what right does any Muslim have to exhibit hostility towards them - simply for being a Christian or a Jew?
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Lost_sheep2
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I’m glad you’re so open minded and accepting of Christians (and Jews). I’ve never read the Qur’an so I don’t know what it says about us, however I know enough history to know how Christians are treated under Islamic regimes and that is what I mean when I say Islam is hostile to Christianity. However I certainly don’t believe that all Muslims are evil or hate Christians or something and it has been my pleasure to meet and befriend lots of Muslims like yourself who mean no harm to us and are, I’m sure, wonderful people 
There is no doubt at all that Christians (and Jews) are treated badly under Islamic regimes; and it would be both insulting and sinful to pretend otherwise.
In 2017, one hundred and twenty-six Islamic scholars signed an open letter to the leader of ISIS. It contains these words (my emphasis):
‘Regarding Arab Christians, you gave them three choices: jizyah (poll tax), the sword, or conversion to Islam. You painted their homes red, destroyed their churches, and in some cases, looted their homes and property. You killed some of them and caused many others to flee their homes with nothing but their lives and the clothes on their backs. These Christians are not combatants against Islam or transgressors against it, indeed they are friends, neighbours and co-citizens . From the legal perspective of Shari’ah they all fall under ancient agreements that are around 1400 years old, and the rulings of jihad do not apply to them . Some of their ancestors fought alongside the Prophet’s army against the Byzantines; and thus have been citizens of the State of Medina since that time. Others are under agreements that were guaranteed to them by Omar ibn Al-Khattab, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, the Umayyads, the Abbasids, the Ottomans and their respective states. In short, they are not strangers to these lands, but rather, of the native peoples of these lands from pre-Islamic times; they are not enemies but friends. ’ (‘Letter to Baghdadi’).
I closed my last post with these words: ‘If this is what the Exalted has to say about the ‘ best of creation ’, what right does any Muslim have to exhibit hostility towards them – simply for being a Christian or a Jew?’
The Qur’an gives no support for such behaviour. Those who act this way are usurpers. This is what Khaled Abou El Fadl has to say of them:
‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).
Peace be with you.
In 2017, one hundred and twenty-six Islamic scholars signed an open letter to the leader of ISIS. It contains these words (my emphasis):
‘Regarding Arab Christians, you gave them three choices: jizyah (poll tax), the sword, or conversion to Islam. You painted their homes red, destroyed their churches, and in some cases, looted their homes and property. You killed some of them and caused many others to flee their homes with nothing but their lives and the clothes on their backs. These Christians are not combatants against Islam or transgressors against it, indeed they are friends, neighbours and co-citizens . From the legal perspective of Shari’ah they all fall under ancient agreements that are around 1400 years old, and the rulings of jihad do not apply to them . Some of their ancestors fought alongside the Prophet’s army against the Byzantines; and thus have been citizens of the State of Medina since that time. Others are under agreements that were guaranteed to them by Omar ibn Al-Khattab, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, the Umayyads, the Abbasids, the Ottomans and their respective states. In short, they are not strangers to these lands, but rather, of the native peoples of these lands from pre-Islamic times; they are not enemies but friends. ’ (‘Letter to Baghdadi’).
I closed my last post with these words: ‘If this is what the Exalted has to say about the ‘ best of creation ’, what right does any Muslim have to exhibit hostility towards them – simply for being a Christian or a Jew?’
The Qur’an gives no support for such behaviour. Those who act this way are usurpers. This is what Khaled Abou El Fadl has to say of them:
‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).
Peace be with you.
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Salibi
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Couple of questions/observations:
- These verses seem to indicate the importance of good works in Islam, so is it safe to think that Islam is works-based rather than faith-based, given the al-Maida verse that you posted?
- If there is no obligation to convert, why do some sects (Wahhabis, Salafists) interpret the Qu’ran in a way that’s quite unfavourable to Jews, Druze, and Christians? I do not have in mind murderous terrorists like some Islamic militant groups, but fundamentalist sects that are not terroristic but rather very strict.
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Crusader13
New member
Perhaps I didn’t phrase that correctly. The goal of Islam is to make converts of everyone on earth. I can’t speak to the Muslim friends that you know, but it’s not fair to claim they represent the belief structure of the entire Muslim world.
No more then certain self identifying Catholics, who may only attend Mass once a year and believe in contraception and women’s ordination, are reflective of authentic catholic teachings.
My comment about the coexisting views with non-Muslims was not meant to be applied to every individual Muslim world wide. I was speaking of the teachings of Islam and its views about being the one true faith.
Much like Catholicism, they seek to transform the world and bring others to salvation. It’s not content to simply exist within its boundaries.
I never implied that Muslims are evil people nor did I infer that every aspect of the religion is inherently bad. I believe that the religion teaches serious errors with regards to how we are saved. And most Muslims believe the same about Christians.
So my point is that, while being friendly and respectful towards one another is a given, our faiths can’t be reconciled and we cannot compromise on what we know to be true without rejecting the very thing that identifies us as Catholics or they as Muslims.
So while it’s believed by some that we can all just hold hands and pray together for various needs and ideals and be one united people, our ultimate goal is the salvation of souls. And at the end of this life we either need Jesus as Lord and Savior to attain Heaven or as Islam teaches, we don’t. It can’t be both!
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billsherman
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Well, I went of course (via Zoom), and my niece did a great job. I also didn’t ask my pastor, because there is no need. Avoiding such events would be silly, and as the Cardinal shows us Catholics can, and should, attend such events with Muslims as well.
Also, while I had nothing to do with the service, they kindly mentioned my mother when the Mourner’s Kaddish was prayed. If you don’t know anything about Judaism you should look into that particular prayer - it’s a beautiful tradition.
I wish I had known they were going to mention my mother, because I would have asked the posters on this thread if I should have stopped it.
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puer.dei
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How wonderful!
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