British "Cardinal Celebrates Ramadan at Home"

[Crusader13]

And the Cardinal isn’t celebrating Ramadan, he’s enjoying the meal at the end of it. It’s like an atheist celebrating Christmas.

I can’t speak for anyone else and I know topics such as these are often discussed with hypothetical situations on what is right and proper to attend when it comes to non-Catholic religious events.

However, I don’t think it’s quite the same as an atheist celebrating Christmas. There’s not a secular aspect to any portion of Ramadan, like with Christmas. Christmas has become more secular with very little emphasis placed on the religious background.

I think the problem is that when clergy try to bring attention to a non Catholic religious holiday, by either participating in or wishing others to have a great (fill in the blank), it sends a confusing message.

If a religious belief system, such as Islam, is false with no salvific value, why would you encourage it’s participation and spread? It’s not as if Islam is seeking to further Christian ideals or beliefs, it’s entirely opposed to the doctrines of Christianity and it’s not compatible nor content with simply existing alongside Christianity.

 

[billsherman]

There’s not a secular aspect to any portion of Ramadan, like with Christmas.

There are plenty of Muslims who take their faith with the same limited sincerity of many Christians. Just like with “ChrisEaster” Christians, there are Muslims who approach Ramadan with nothing more than cultural duty.

Since most Western Christians rarely have meaningful relationships with Muslims, they tend to exist purely as stereotypes. Muslims come in as many shapes and sizes as Christians. I even have an acquaintance who converted to Islam while she was transitioning from male to female. I suspect many Western Christians would find that shocking.

But I still need to know if I can attend my niece’s Bat Mitzvah on Saturday morning? Can I send her a card congratulating her? What is the verdict @gam197?

 

[TMC]

However, I don’t think it’s quite the same as an atheist celebrating Christmas. There’s not a secular aspect to any portion of Ramadan, like with Christmas. Christmas has become more secular with very little emphasis placed on the religious background.

Why do you think this is true? I have a number of Muslim friends. Some are very devout. Others are only nominally Muslim. All of them celebrate the big holidays - just like Christians (and Jews, and I am sure every other religion).

 

[gam197]

But I still need to know if I can attend my niece’s Bat Mitzvah on Saturday morning? Can I send her a card congratulating her? What is the verdict @gam197?

Ask your pastor.

There are plenty of Muslims who take their faith with the same limited sincerity of many Christians. Just like with “ChrisEaster” Christians, there are Muslims who approach Ramadan with nothing more than cultural duty.

Since most Western Christians rarely have meaningful relationships with Muslims, they tend to exist purely as stereotypes. Muslims come in as many shapes and sizes as Christians. I even have an acquaintance who converted to Islam while she was transitioning from male to female. I suspect many Western Christians would find that shocking.

No one is denying that many are devout religious people, many are very good people and that is for God to judge but it is still a false religion that they are a part of with a massive following of 1.8 billion. The question for me is are all faiths equal and I would say they are not so why promote a false religion.

 

[billsherman]

Ask your pastor.

Why? You didn’t need to ask your pastor to “know” that the Cardinal did the wrong thing by eating with Muslims.

From what you’ve written in this thread, here’s what I can gather: 1) You aren’t sure if I can attend my niece’s Bat Mitzvah on Saturday. 2) You are sure that if my niece was instead hosting an Iftar, I couldn’t attend.

Am I wrong? And if I’m right, what is the difference?

The question for me is are all faiths equal and I would say they are not so why promote a false religion.

Is Judaism a false religion?

 

[puer.dei]

Ask your pastor.

Does that advice also apply to public criticism of Cardinals?

 

[gam197]

Does that advice also apply to public criticism of Cardinals?

This Cardinal is making a public statement for the whole world to view. Another Cardinal has made a youtube video on Ramaden for the world to see.
.
This is false religion that has attracted many followers.- 1.8 billion

 

[gam197]

gam197:

Ask your pastor.

Why? You didn’t need to ask your pastor to “know” that the Cardinal did the wrong thing by eating with Muslims.

From what you’ve written in this thread, here’s what I can gather: 1) You aren’t sure if I can attend my niece’s Bat Mitzvah on Saturday. 2) You are sure that if my niece was instead hosting an Iftar, I couldn’t attend.

Am I wrong? And if I’m right, what is the difference?

The question for me is are all faiths equal and I would say they are not so why promote a false religion.

Is Judaism a false religion?

Ask your pastor. I do not profess to know the rules for all faiths and where and when you can attend. I do know in my family that we were advised not to attend a number of events for relatives. I asked my pastor.

 

[billsherman]

I do not profess to know the rules for all faiths and where and when you can attend.

But you do profess to know the rules for what a Cardinal can do. The Cardinal, who is a pastor by the way, is pretty clear that you are wrong.

What’s the difference between what he did and my niece’s Bat Mitzvah? My attendance would also be a public statement to the whole world. I’ve posted about it here, and will in other places as well.

 

[gam197]

But you do profess to know the rules for what a Cardinal can do. The Cardinal, who is a pastor by the way, is pretty clear that you are wrong.

What’s the difference between what he did and my niece’s Bat Mitzvah? My attendance would also be a public statement to the whole world. I’ve posted about it here, and will in other places as well.

You are one person at a very small gathering of people and whether you attend or not is up to you and your pastor.

The Cardinal is a public figure and he is making a public statement to 7 billion people.

 

[billsherman]

You are one person at a very small gathering and whether you attend or not is up to you and your pastor.

Ok, but shouldn’t it just be up to my pastor? You seem fairly certain that my view is irrelevant.

The Cardinal is a public figure and he is making a public statement to 7 billion people.

The Cardinal IS a pastor. He attended. You are saying he was wrong to do that.

I like how you know what a Cardinal is allowed to do, but not a layman. Is it possible that the Cardinal knows better than you?

 

[gam197]

Ok, but shouldn’t it just be up to my pastor? You seem fairly certain that my view is irrelevant.

I did not say your view was irrelevant. I said ask your pastor.

The Cardinal IS a pastor. He attended. You are saying he was wrong to do that.

I like how you know what a Cardinal is allowed to do, but not a layman. Is it possible that the Cardinal knows better than you?

Laymen can have opinions.

 

[billsherman]

Laymen can have opinions. .

I’ll take that as an admission that the Cardinal might, just possibly, know better than you.

 

[gam197]

I’ll take that as an admission that the Cardinal might, just possibly, know better than you.

All faiths are not equal. I was just giving my opinon that I felt scandalized by his statements.

 

[Crusader13]

Crusader13:

However, I don’t think it’s quite the same as an atheist celebrating Christmas. There’s not a secular aspect to any portion of Ramadan, like with Christmas. Christmas has become more secular with very little emphasis placed on the religious background.

Why do you think this is true? I have a number of Muslim friends. Some are very devout. Others are only nominally Muslim. All of them celebrate the big holidays - just like Christians (and Jews, and I am sure every other religion).

I’m not sure what exactly you’re referring to. Celebrating the big holidays by non-Christians is the point I was trying to make.

Many people celebrate Christmas and Easter and Halloween but yet have no desire to celebrate the birth of Christ (advent), the resurrection or All Saints’ Day. For these people they are celebrating the secular aspect of the holiday, not necessarily the religious understanding that we as Catholics associate with the holiday.

That was point in my statement. For a Muslim to celebrate Christmas, doesn’t imply that they are celebrating the birth of Jesus. There’s another side to the holiday; which could be just the giving of gifts, decorating, the getting together with family, or any other cultural or family traditions that are attached to that time of year.

Ramadan doesn’t have the same mainstream acceptance or significance that Christmas has. Meaning you rarely hear of non-Muslims celebrating Ramadan for some non religious reason and it’s certainly not emphasized with same commercialization as “the holidays” are here in the US.

Nowadays it is perfectly acceptable for anyone to celebrate Christmas without being told they are participating in a religious holiday. In many ways Christmas has been stripped of any and all spiritual or religious background. That’s not the case with Ramadan.

 

[TMC]

Ramadan doesn’t have the same mainstream acceptance or significance that Christmas has. Meaning you rarely hear of non-Muslims celebrating Ramadan for some non religious reason and it’s certainly not emphasized with same commercialization as “the holidays” are here in the US.

Are you sure about that? I am not, and I don’t see the difference between a Muslim celebrating Christmas (which many American Muslims do), and a Christian participating in Eid.

 

[Crusader13]

Are you sure about that? I am not, and I don’t see the difference between a Muslim celebrating Christmas (which many American Muslims do), and a Christian participating in Eid.

Well I’m certainly not trying to derail this thread and I realize my views are largely subjective, but I think it’s safe to say that Christmas has a much broader appeal to everyone, than say Ramadan or any other Islamic holiday.

Maybe you have experienced or witnessed the attempted secularization of an Islamic holiday, but I have not.

What I mean is that, Christmas is pushed because of its financial aspect and because it’s the time of year where sales of merchandise tend to skyrocket.

We’ve seen many companies trying to downplay the Jesus focus and instead seek to reach a much larger group of people. Which is why over the last 5-10 years we’ve seen a pushback from the Christian community trying to keep Christ in Christmas and a bunch of other sayings that focus on Merry Christmas and less on Seasons Greetings.

So yes I do believe that even your most diehard anti religious anti Jesus person will celebrate Christmas without ever having to second guess if they are supporting the religious meaning of it.

 

[Crusader13]

But I still need to know if I can attend my niece’s Bat Mitzvah on Saturday morning? Can I send her a card congratulating her?

I don’t know if you were personally asking me, but if I were in your shoes I would probably attend.

I’ve never been to a bat mitzvah but I do know for some Jews the emphasis is no longer on the religious side of it, but instead the focus is more on the right of passage that it entails. In some ways it is similar to a girls sweet 16 party or if you’re from Mexican descent, a quinceanera for your 15-year-old daughter.

I know that there is not a one-size-fits-all response that works for everyone in every situation. However, in your situation I don’t see a problem with it, but that’s just me.

I also see a difference between your scenario versus a member of the magisterium trying to publicly make a statement by either showing support or encouraging others to participate in certain religious holidays that can be viewed as being very contrary to the Catholic faith.

 

[Humility]

I know that Nostra Aetete says that “The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions”, so what does that mean in terms of our being able to join in celebrations with our non-Christian brothers and sisters like this Cardinal did? Are we allowed to attend services in other religions’ houses of worship? Not to participate, of course, but to learn and to foster interfaith dialogue?

 

[Crusader13]

I guess it depends on the religious service and what exactly one’s participation entails.

Not rejecting that which is true and holy in a particular religion, is not the same as validating the entire religion as being salvific.

So in terms of ecumenical dialogue, it’s fine to talk and be respectful and listen to what other faiths are trying to say. However, we should be asking what the goal is when we enter into this dialogue with other faiths. And we can’t be afraid to confront the errors of these false religions.

Islam is spreading across Europe and no signed agreement by any member of our magisterium is going to halt this influx and I can assure you that their goal isn’t merely to coexist alongside Christians.