Byzantine Catholic and sin

[Vico]

No, what I’m describing is different. The Latin catechism teaches that venial sin can LEAD to mortal sin, not that it can BECOME mortal sin. Think about it this way: a person insults someone once. Would that be a mortal sin? Likely not. But what about if that person continues insulting people over and over again? Should they continue doing it simply because it’s a venial sin? No. That sin has overtaken them and has dragged them away from God. It has become mortal for them because it has become a part of their nature and dragged them away from God.

That is what this says: “Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin.”

Note also that venial sins are actual sins for which penance is to be done. An act of contrition suffices to obtain forgiveness of a venial sin.

Penance (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

The virtue or disposition of heart by which one repents of one’s own sins and is converted to God.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Can you please point to where anyone has explicitly rejected Church teaching?

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Thank you for posting that. The author simply quotes a small portion, but the point is made. He also has a very helpful commentary and (rightly) points out that it wasn’t until St. Robert Bellarmine that Roman Catholics adopted this idea that the post-Schism councils are truly “ecumenical”.

I wonder of Pope Benedict XVI said anything on this point. I’ll have to do some digging around…

 

[George720]

Venial sin can LEAD to [but] not … BECOME mortal sin.
A venial sin… [can] become mortal…
Because it has become a part of [one’s] nature
And dragged [one] away from God.

David - Does this not just affirm what you deny??

Or are you arguing that a venial sin willfully unrepented becomes the mortal sin toward which it was leading? eg That not repenting of a venial sin is itself a mortal sin?

Penance (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

The virtue or disposition of heart by which one repents of one’s own sins and is converted to God.

I always thought that penance is a penalty embraced for the sake of overcoming a sin…

Hence repentance by penance is punitive…

God’s mercy for us behemothic knuckle-draggers…

geo

 

[Elvis_George]

Look I don’t understand what this fuzz is about. I’m Syro Malabar and what you said is how we are taught in CCD. I know no other way to confess because of that Now the thing is that,we do not “reject” the concept of dividing sins into categories,but we have our own ways and therefore we do not need to categorize sins!

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I agree.

The thing that I’ve come to really appreciate about the East is that our mentality toward sin is much more relational. Sin isn’t the violation of a commandment so much as the violation of a relationship. In that sense all sin is serious.

It follows, of course, that some sins are more serious and more damaging to our relationship with God, than others. As an example, if I yell at my wife in the heat of an argument, that’s a violation of our relationship and it may take a little time and effort for me to repair the damage I caused. If in the heat of an argument I slap my wife, it will take considerably more time and effort to set the relationship right. But if I cheat on my wife, then that could potentially destroy the relationship that we have, and if it doesn’t, years of reparation will be necessary.

To me, that’s just a very different way of thinking than nit-picking whether a sin is venial or mortal. I don’t want to commit any sin (venial or mortal) because I don’t want to damage my relationship with God (and with others).

 

[Vico]

Venial sin is mortal sin if it pulls someone away from God. Someone could commit the same venial sin 24/7 and never commit any other sin, but that venial sin has now become a mortal sin.

Yes, a particular kind of sin repeated. This is a series of sins that eventually leads to a serious sin. An example is theft, although petty, through repeating, becomes grave (serious) at some point. Of course knowledge of it being sinful is necessary in addition to it being willful.

 

[Vico]

David_Catholic:

Venial sin can LEAD to [but] not … BECOME mortal sin.
A venial sin… [can] become mortal…
Because it has become a part of [one’s] nature
And dragged [one] away from God.

David - Does this not just affirm what you deny??

Or are you arguing that a venial sin willfully unrepented becomes the mortal sin toward which it was leading? eg That not repenting of a venial sin is itself a mortal sin?

Penance (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

The virtue or disposition of heart by which one repents of one’s own sins and is converted to God.

I always thought that penance is a penalty embraced for the sake of overcoming a sin…

Hence repentance by penance is punitive…

God’s mercy for us behemothic knuckle-draggers…

geo

So there are several senses of penance, however Latin paenitentia means repentance, contrition.

Senses of penance:

• virtue or disposition of heart
• punishment by which one atones for sins (own or others)
• the sacrament

Modern Catholic Dictionary also states on punishment:

Any ill suffered in consequence of wrongdoing. It has three functions, which ideally should be retributive as serving the offended person, corrective for the offender, and deterrent for the community at large.

 

[Vico]

That’s not what the Latin Church teaches. The Latin Church says that repeated venial sin weakens is so that it’s harder to avoid mortal sin, but even repeated venial sin doesn’t become mortal sin.

The Latin teaching is that each sinful thought, act, or omission is an instance, but not all instances immediately destroy the friendship with the Holy Trinity. The gravity can change with a series, for example with petty thefts that accumulate to grave, at that instant it becomes grave matter it could become mortal sin and destroy the friendship with the Holy Trinity.

 

[XXI_4]

There is this. Not exactly what you were looking for, but along the same lines. I’d like to get a hold of the entire book and see what it says.

“Certainly, no one who claims allegiance to Catholic theology can simply declare the doctrine of primacy null and void, especially not if he seeks to understand the objections and evaluates with an open mind the relative weight of what can be determined historically. Nor is it possible, on the other hand, for him to regard as the only possible form and, consequently, as binding on all Christians the form this primacy has taken in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. The symbolic gestures of Pope Paul VI and, in particular, his kneeling before the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarch were an attempt to express precisely this… in other words, Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than what had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium . . . Rome need not ask for more. Reunion could take place in this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that development, while, on the other hand, the West would recognize the Church of the East as orthodox and legitimate in the form she has always had.” Joseph Ratzinger , Principles of Catholic Theology , San Francisco, Ignatius, 1987

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Margaret_Ann:

I didn’t know that the EOC distinguished between mortal and venial sins

they don’t, yet, like EC, they write volumes about it anyway (or, in this case, it

As I posted earlier: /facepalm

 

[George720]

So there are several senses of penance, however Latin paenitentia means repentance, contrition.

Senses of penance:

• virtue or disposition of heart
• punishment by which one atones for sins (own or others)
• the sacrament

Modern Catholic Dictionary also states on punishment:

Any ill suffered in consequence of wrongdoing. It has three functions, which ideally should be retributive as serving the offended person, corrective for the offender, and deterrent for the community at large.

Perhaps we have another difference between East and West here, then… A penance in the west is a virtue or a disposition of heart, a punishment atoning for a sin(s), or a Sacrament… In the east, a penance is a penalty, a punitive measure, that one takes in order to overcome a sin… It CAN be a punishment one endures for the sake of “paying” for having done a sin, but this is very exceptional… Normally, the way to break out of a sin is to confess it and to do a penance repeated for each incidence where that sin is entertained, in thought or word or deed… And the purpose is to overcome the sin, and not simply to “pay” for having sinned…

Elder Aimillianos authored a book titled “The Mystical Marriage” which addresses primary and fundamental issues regarding one’s relationship with God - Chapter one is titled: “ADULTERY”… And it begins with what adultery means regarding God, because “I the Lord thy God an a JEALOUS God…” and it has to do with purity of heart and total devotion to God… And it is about how we all utterly violate that devotion throughout each day of our lives, even as believers…

One of the best modern book on spiritual life ever… He will be canonized one day - He recently reposed…

geo

 

[dochawk]

As I posted earlier: /facepalm

hey, we wouldn’t be byzantine if there was a clear path through the logic, now would we?

:crazy_face:

p.s. love that emogithingy

 

[George720]

The Latin teaching is that each sinful thought, act, or omission is an instance, but not all instances immediately destroy the friendship with the Holy Trinity.

This idea shows a dogmatic contrast between West and East…

The East is not concerned with fallen human friendship with the Holy Trinity…
As Christians, our relationship is with Christ, the Marriage of the Lamb…
As we say, “In THY Light we shall SEE Light…”

The very idea of “Our friendship with the Holy Trinity” is not a part of our understanding…
For us, such a notion would be greeted with grave skepticism…

geo

 

[twf]

My Orthodox cousin says that the Orthodox insist that there is no purgatory, but act like there is one… this something like that?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

So there are several senses of penance, however Latin paenitentia means repentance, contrition.

Senses of penance:

• virtue or disposition of heart
• punishment by which one atones for sins (own or others)
• the sacrament

Modern Catholic Dictionary also states on punishment:

Any ill suffered in consequence of wrongdoing. It has three functions, which ideally should be retributive as serving the offended person, corrective for the offender, and deterrent for the community at large.

Perhaps we have another difference between East and West here, then… A penance in the west is a virtue or a disposition of heart, a punishment atoning for a sin(s), or a Sacrament… In the east, a penance is a penalty, a punitive measure, that one takes in order to overcome a sin… It CAN be a punishment one endures for the sake of “paying” for having done a sin, but this is very exceptional… Normally, the way to break out of a sin is to confess it and to do a penance repeated for each incidence where that sin is entertained, in thought or word or deed… And the purpose is to overcome the sin, and not simply to “pay” for having sinned…

Elder Aimillianos authored a book titled “The Mystical Marriage” which addresses primary and fundamental issues regarding one’s relationship with God - Chapter one is titled: “ADULTERY”… And it begins with what adultery means regarding God, because “I the Lord thy God an a JEALOUS God…” and it has to do with purity of heart and total devotion to God… And it is about how we all utterly violate that devotion throughout each day of our lives, even as believers…

One of the best modern book on spiritual life ever… He will be canonized one day - He recently reposed…

geo

Looks like a valuable book.

I doubt that there is a difference there east-west. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion . Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.23

1435 Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right,33 by the admission of faults to one’s brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one’s cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.34

 

[Vico]

The Latin teaching is that each sinful thought, act, or omission is an instance, but not all instances immediately destroy the friendship with the Holy Trinity.

This idea shows a dogmatic contrast between West and East…

The East is not concerned with fallen human friendship with the Holy Trinity…
As Christians, our relationship is with Christ, the Marriage of the Lamb…
As we say, “In THY Light we shall SEE Light…”

The very idea of “Our friendship with the Holy Trinity” is not a part of our understanding…
For us, such a notion would be greeted with grave skepticism…

geo

Friendship means the friendship of man for God or caritas in Latin, in Greek it is Charis (χάρις) but also can be agape (ἀγάπη). Charis has several meanings in the Bible:
a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ,
b) favor,
c) gratitude, thanks,
d) a favor, kindness.

So gratitude or thanks is what is referred to.

Lost:

Genesis 3

8 They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

St. Basil the Great wrote in Homily XVII:

The expression, ‘With thy whole,’ admits of no division into parts. As much love as you shall have squandered on lower objects, that much will necessarily be lacking to you from the whole. Because of this, of all people few have been called friends of God, as Moses has been described as a friend; (Cf. Exod. 33.11) likewise, John: ‘But the friend’ he says, ‘of the bridegroom, who stands, rejoices exceedingly,’ (John 3.29) that is to say, he who has a steadfast and immovable love for Christ, he is worthy of His friendship.

And

Therefore, the Lord said to His disciples who were already perfect: ‘No longer do I call you servants,’ but friends; ‘because the servant does not know what his master does.’ (John 15.15) Accordingly, it is the privilege of a perfect man truly to recognize the Beloved. In reality, only holy men are the friends of God and friends to each other, but no one of the wicked or stupid is a friend. The beauty of friendship does not fall into a depraved state, since nothing shameful or incongruous can be capable of the harmonious union of friendship.

Reference: The Fathers of the Church, Volume 46, St. Basil Exegetic Homilies, Cima Publishing Company, 1947

 

[George720]

St. Basil the Great wrote in Homily XVII:

The expression, ‘With thy whole,’ admits of no division into parts. As much love as you shall have squandered on lower objects, that much will necessarily be lacking to you from the whole. Because of this, of all people few have been called friends of God, as Moses has been described as a friend; (Cf. Exod. 33.11) likewise, John: ‘But the friend’ he says, ‘of the bridegroom, who stands, rejoices exceedingly,’ (John 3.29) that is to say, he who has a steadfast and immovable love for Christ, he is worthy of His friendship.

Man’s friendship with God is only indirectly with the Holy Trinity, but is directly with Christ-God Who became man for our sakes… I believe that the terms “friendship” and “union” and “the Marriage of the Lamb” and “knowing” all refer to the same thing, of which John writes: “And this is Life Eternal, that they should be knowing Thee, the One True God, and His Son, Jesus Christ, Whom Thou hast sent…”

I am glad to see you here Vico…

Union with Christ is friendship with God, I should think…

I still would not proclaim my “friendship” with the Holy Trinity except through Him…

And I would not speculate on that friendship…

“In Thy Light shall we see Light…”

And indeed the Father of Lights…

geo

 

[Vico]

…
Man’s friendship with God is only indirectly with the Holy Trinity, but is directly with Christ-God Who became man for our sakes… I believe that the terms “friendship” and “union” and “the Marriage of the Lamb” and “knowing” all refer to the same thing, of which John writes: “And this is Life Eternal, that they should be knowing Thee, the One True God, and His Son, Jesus Christ, Whom Thou hast sent…”

I am glad to see you here Vico…

Union with Christ is friendship with God, I should think…

I still would not proclaim my “friendship” with the Holy Trinity except through Him…

And I would not speculate on that friendship…

“In Thy Light shall we see Light…”

And indeed the Father of Lights…

geo

Holy Gifts to holy people!

Since the Son of God is the same person as Jesus Christ and due to Perichoresis (the mutual penetration of the three Persons) friendship with Jesus Christ is friendship with the Holy Trinity.

 

[George720]

Since the Son of God is the same person as Jesus Christ and due to Perichoresis (the mutual penetration of the three Persons) friendship with Jesus Christ is friendship with the Holy Trinity.

Yes, it is a function of Perichoresis…
And not a function of one’s friendship with the Holy Trinity…
Christ incarnated for us, you see, and we become one with Him…
We are not one with the Holy Trinity except through Him…
And even then, ONLY through Him…
He knows the Father in a manner that we cannot…
For He is God and we are not…

geo