Byzantine Catholic and sin

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George720 said:
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Vico:
Since the Son of God is the same person as Jesus Christ and due to Perichoresis (the mutual penetration of the three Persons) friendship with Jesus Christ is friendship with the Holy Trinity.
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Yes, it is a function of Perichoresis…
And not a function of one’s friendship with the Holy Trinity…
Christ incarnated for us, you see, and we become one with Him…
We are not one with the Holy Trinity except through Him…
And even then, ONLY through Him…
He knows the Father in a manner that we cannot…
For He is God and we are not…

geo
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Though the person which is divine: thus the Holy Trinity!

An excerpt from the anamnesis of the Anaphora of the Divine Liturgy of Our Holy Father Basil the Great:
When the fullness of time had come,
you spoke to us through your own Son,
the very one through whom you created the ages.
Although he is the reflection of your glory and the express image of your person,
sustaining all things by his powerful word,
He did not deem equality with you, God and Father, something to be grasped;
rather, while remaining everlasting God,
he appeared on earth and lived among men.
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Equality is not identity of Person except in ousia…
We only know the Person Who became man…
We only become one in the Marriage of the Lamb…
With the Person Christ is…

I do not think you will find any of the Holy Fathers saying we become one with the Father or with the Holy Spirit - Our union is with Christ… Through Him we can say we have access or even union with the Holy Trinity, but to say we are friends with the Holy Trinity, as in the meaning of friends as being familiar, is not found in the East… Normally, familiarity is not even found with Christ-God, but instead through His Mother - And there carefully…

I guess that it was the term “friendship with the Holy Trinity” that was off-putting… It just had a feel of human familiarity with the Holy Trinity that could be placed in jeopardy by sin… As in: “Gosh, we were really good friends but then this happened…”

χάρις means Grace, btw, not friendship, though favor/preference/kindness is implied… Charity is a workable term for its meaning… It does not mean friendship… Nor does agaph…

St Basil clearly writes we are friends of the Bridegroom, not of the Holy Trinity…

Equality is not identity…
eg Essence is not identity of Persons…

Forgive me, but to my old Orthodox ears, speaking of one’s own friendship with the Holy Trinity that can be damaged etc by sin, speaking in a casual manner of it, simply grates on my soul… It just feels presumptuous to me… Being a friend of God is almost too holy and too great to even consider, let alone casually discuss…

We can leave this here - I have seen such mentions elsewhere on caf… It seems common enough in the West… Thank-you…

geo
 
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twf said:
My Orthodox cousin says that the Orthodox insist that there is no purgatory, but act like there is one… this something like that?
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I don’t want to make a general statement putting words in their mouth, but my understanding is that they don’t so much outright reject the notion, as insist that there is no basis for asserting it.

Orthodox are agreed with Catholic about the need for cleansing of sin after death; they just don’t have a universal agreement on form.

One approach that is kind of parallel to the notion of purgatory is the “tollhouse theory”.

search
tollhouse site:byzcath.org
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for multiple discussions on the issue.
 
George720 said:
… St Basil clearly writes we are friends of the Bridegroom, not of the Holy Trinity…
… Being a friend of God is almost too holy and too great to even consider, let alone casually discuss…
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St. Basil the Great wrote that (friend of the Bridegroom) and also: "because of this, of all people few have been called friends of God, as Moses has been described as a friend; (Cf. Exod. 33.11) "
 
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George720 said:
Forgive me, but to my old Orthodox ears, speaking of one’s own friendship with the Holy Trinity that can be damaged etc by sin, speaking in a casual manner of it, simply grates on my soul… It just feels presumptuous to me… Being a friend of God is almost too holy and too great to even consider, let alone casually discuss…
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Do you believe the Holy Spirit dwells in you?
 
George720 said:
Forgive me, but to my old Orthodox ears, speaking of one’s own friendship with the Holy Trinity that can be damaged etc by sin, speaking in a casual manner of it, simply grates on my soul… It just feels presumptuous to me… Being a friend of God is almost too holy and too great to even consider, let alone casually discuss…
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If this is the case @George720, then I strongly encourage you to read and meditate on the homilies of St. Macarius the Great. According to him (and drawing from the Scriptures) the very purpose of our creation is for this friendship with God - Who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Now if your main concern isn’t so much the reality of friendship with God, but that the West speaks of it so openly (while the East maintains this mentality of “holy things for the holy ones”), then I understand your reservations. But the truth is, from the perspective of the East even, we were all created for friendship with God - more than that, we were created to be sons and daughters of God.

Look at how the Scriptures speak of Israel’s relationship to YHWY. God Himself calls them “friends,” “sons and daughters,” even “lovers.” If that was true of the old Israel, how much more so is it true of us, the New Israel!
 
I’m a former Latin rite Catholic that has made the switch to the Maronite rite.
My personal opinion is that I do not distinguish between venial and mortal sins
even at time of examination of conscience, but rather I just confess whatever
sins I feel needs to confessed and leave the distinction for God to decide.

I just wanted to say whether you make the switch to the Byzantine rite or not
you are always permitted to go to confession within any Catholic rite. If I
happen to go to confession in a rite other than the one I belong to I will normally
let the priest know which rite I belong to if it makes sense to do so. For example,
if I missed Mass on the Epiphany (which is a holy day of obligation in the Maronite
Church) I would inform the priest that I am Maronite and that I missed attending
Mass on the Holy Day of Obligation (and reference the Epiphany). Hope this helps.
 
NO penitent of the Latin rite church nor any of the other rite’s are required confess venial sins.
The church says: Without being strictly necessary, confession of everyday faults (venial sins) is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church. Indeed the regular confession of our venial sins helps us form our conscience, fight against evil tendencies, let ourselves be healed by Christ and progress in the life of the Spirit. By receiving more frequently through this sacrament the gift of the Father’s mercy, we are spurred to be merciful as he is merciful.

The church also teaches that forgiveness of venial is granted when we are sorry and recite at Mass the Confession of Faith. In the Latin rite: I confess to almighty God and to you my brother’s and sister’s that I have sinned through my own fault in my thoughts and in my words, and what I have done and what I have failed to do. I ask the blessed virgin Mary, all the angels and saints and you my brother’s and sister’s to pray for me to the Lord our God.
 
“dvdjs said:
Now communion is regular, but communicants may be expected to confess every month or so and to refrain from communion until grave sins are confessed. On the other hand, Schmeeman has ventured the opinion that one should only confess on rare occasions; he also espouses communion at all communion services.

I’ve heard Latin rite priests suggest at minimum to follow the change of seasons (either liturgical or secular seasons). Fall (Advent), Winter (Christmas), Spring (Easter), and but not least Summer (Ordinary time)
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Phillip_Rolfes said:
If this is the case @George720, then I strongly encourage you to read and meditate on the homilies of St. Macarius the Great. According to him (and drawing from the Scriptures) the very purpose of our creation is for this friendship with God - Who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
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It can be see that way, and experienced in that manner, for so Holy is such a Friendship that it can seem to be the purpose of our creation… And indeed, in that Grace, the whole of that purpose can coalesce into a Oneness with God that embraces all Creation…
Phillip_Rolfes said:
But the truth is, from the perspective of the East even, we were all created for friendship with God - more than that, we were created to be sons and daughters of God.
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Here is what it looks like:


It simply does not admit of casual discussions about one’s friendship with the Holy Trinity and how we really don’t want to jeopardize our relations with the Holy Trinity because we especially treasure each of our relationships with those wonderful Persons found there… Indeed, being a Friend of God is not a matter of making friends with the Persons of the Holy Trinity - That very idea is crackers… It is a matter of the utter sacrifice of self for the sake of God, and not of making friends with Persons…
Phillip_Rolfes said:
God Himself calls them “friends,” “sons and daughters,” even “lovers.” If that was true of the old Israel, how much more so is it true of us, the New Israel!
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Well, it is certainly more common, because of our Baptismal Hypostatic Union with Christ, Sealed in the Holy Spirit… But the OT Prophets were not less than those of the NT in terms of their being Friends of God… Indeed, they are, I should think, moreso… They paid a greater price with less of a foundation, and we know that the Blessed Virgin is on the Right Hand of Christ, and John the Baptist on His Left, yes? Neither of whom were Baptized into Christ…

Thank you for your thoughtful and caring reply, Phillip…

geo
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
Now if your main concern isn’t so much the reality of friendship with God, but that the West speaks of it so openly (while the East maintains this mentality of “holy things for the holy ones”), then I understand your reservations.
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The “reality of friendship with God” is exceeding rare, and perhaps I suffer from thinking that people who do not have first hand of knowing it should not be positing it as something assured, or in the bag, or as a “reality” of ordinary Christian experience… It is no such thing, and us behemothic types have no warrant except to posit it as something we have heard about and of which we know nothing…

I remember when the Evangelical Church (the old CCC) was converting to Orthodoxy, and they were all hung-ho with this new term “Theosis”, and they were talking Theosis this and Theosis that, and how the whole discipleship of the Church was defined by its having Theosis as its purpose and goal… And in the 2000 or so of them of whom I was somewhat familiar, I could see that they had no real knowledge of what they were talking about, but boy-oh-boy did they have this great Theological term to bandy about with, and impress all their theology-buddies… They do not do that anymore… The ones who knew - Maybe 5 out of the whole bunch, maybe less, managed to convey to the rest their abysmal ignorance and vainglory, and they were returned to the “cost of discipleship” school of Theology - eg Penance and overcoming sin… They know the cost now, you see… And they are quiet…

geo
 
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Herculees said:
NO penitent of the Latin rite church nor any of the other rite’s are required confess venial sins.
The church says: Without being strictly necessary, confession of everyday faults (venial sins) is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church. Indeed the regular confession of our venial sins helps us form our conscience, fight against evil tendencies, let ourselves be healed by Christ and progress in the life of the Spirit. By receiving more frequently through this sacrament the gift of the Father’s mercy, we are spurred to be merciful as he is merciful.

The church also teaches that forgiveness of venial is granted when we are sorry and recite at Mass the Confession of Faith. In the Latin rite: I confess to almighty God and to you my brother’s and sister’s that I have sinned through my own fault in my thoughts and in my words, and what I have done and what I have failed to do. I ask the blessed virgin Mary, all the angels and saints and you my brother’s and sister’s to pray for me to the Lord our God.
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Certainly – for those venial sins for which a person is sorry.
 
George720 said:
The “reality of friendship with God” is exceeding rare, and perhaps I suffer from thinking that people who do not have first hand of knowing it should not be positing it as something assured, or in the bag, or as a “reality” of ordinary Christian experience…
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Perhaps it is rare. I don’t know, because I don’t know the hearts of others. I can only examine my own heart. What I do know is that I (and all Christians) are called to friendship with God - even more, in fact! Scripture is very clear that the relationship between husband and wife is the best analogy for what our relationship with God ought to look like (marriage as God intends it from the beginning is a living icon of the spiritual life).

There is no pride in recognizing the greatness of our calling. Pride enters when we believe ourselves to have already fulfilled our calling and entered here and now into the fullness of this intimate relationship with God. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s how I understand what you’re getting at. And you rightly point out that this isn’t the mentality of the saints (East or West). The saints are universal in their insistence that we must always have the attitude of being “beginners.” St. Macarius is adamant about this in his homilies. St. Isaac (the Syrian) of Nineveh points this out. The Desert Fathers reinforce this point over and over. St. Francis of Assisi recognized this reality at the end of his life. And even St. Thomas Aquinas admitted to this when he looked at his Summa, compared it to God’s infinite glory that he experienced, and then stopped writing.

Friendship with God ought not to be treated casually - and I believe that’s the point you’re trying to make. “Love (especially the love of friendship) has its demands,” as I once heard Met. Kallistos Ware say in a talk on St. Isaac the Syrian. If I am to call myself a “friend of God,” I ought to be continually asking myself if I am living according to the “demands” of love/friendship. What are those demands? As you point out, they are the “cost of discipleship” - If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross every day and follow me. That is the “cost of discipleship” - the cost of “friendship with God.” It’s anything but casual.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
IF I am to call myself a “friend of God,”
I ought to be continually asking myself
IF I am living according to
the “demands” of love/friendship.
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IF…

The classic Orthodox way of addressing this issue is to forsake that IF and to
NEVER call one’s SELF a Friend of God…
For we are Called of God unto denial of self, you see…
And in our daily lives, we are provably NOT friends of God…

Every irritation we have is enmity with God…
Every time we forget God in some thought or action…
Which is throughout the day…
Every time we are distracted in prayer…
Every time we have a little more dessert…
All the times we are not praying…
You can make your own list…

Nevertheless, you wrote a lovely post, a thoughtful post, and I am taken a tad aback at how wonderfully closely you are attending the argument of Orthodoxy and the Latins in an over-all focus, and your memory of the salient trails of understanding… Much appreciated - More like you would resolve much, I should think!

fwiw, It turns out that I was courting friendship with God as an atheist for my first 36 years of life… So I understand it as something that is given by God, rather than something claimed by man… The very claiming of it violates the courtship, you see, for by your words, its measure is our self-evaluation of our own understanding of living according to the demands of love/friendship and how well we are living according to those demands…

A Friend of God is, in my nvho, one who is Embraced by God, you see - And THAT is not something many speak of in social settings… It is, you see, Life Eternal Itself…

Did you watch the Bp Justinian video (above) where he described his becoming a Friend of God? And its symptom? He did not used the term, but that is how I describe someone who IS a Friend of God…

God Bless you, my Brother!

geo
 
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