Don’t you think condemning dancing as an expression of worship is rather more legalistic?
) are always appropriate, IMO.It really is irrelevant to say it was an auditorium. There was an altar and there was a liturgical service. The point is that Roman Catholics allow this liturgical dancing as an introduction or part of or end to their religious services, whereas the Eastern Orthodox do not.
The Ge’ez Church (an Oriental Orthodox Church) dances during the Liturgy, so I don’t give a whit about what the Eastern Orthodox Church does or does not do. That’s their business. And what the Latins do is their business. Just because SOME want to dance in praise of God is no reason to condemn the action. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, aside from canonical considerations. I didn’t see any dancing DURING the Liturgy, so I don’t know what the problem is.
No, because as much as some might like to think, dancing is not a historic traditional practice of the Latin rite. This is an innovation. That it happens to end just before the Mass starts is irrelevant, as is the fact that this is in not in an actual church building.
What are you basing this on? You make it seem based on personal preference.In a church, I consider loud talking inappropriate before a Liturgy. But actions that are intended to be an expression of praise or worship (that don’t break the Commandments
Yes it is, because it was not part of the Liturgy.
As I stated years ago in the thread “My Witness” I have two criteria:
Yes it is straight up pagan. But the argument is that if it makes the people feel good and they are inspired for Christ, why condemn it?
Alright, but this is the most facile and close-to-the-surface false dilemma in the playbook.
The EP is Eucharistic Prayer 2 for a Mass of Reconciliation. Nothing wrong with it. It wasn’t improv.
Good point. Forgive me for not being clearer. I believe a Bishop can change the liturgical norm by virtue of the fact that bishops, for the good of their flock, can dispense with the norms, even those established by an Ecumenical Council (aside from the necessary rubrics, of course). One needs to understand what a dispensation is. A dispensation is very limited in scope; a dispensation is not an abrogation of a norm. So the norm is still the law of the land, so to speak, and a dispensation is given only in limited, unique circumstances.
So I guess you agree with those naysayers who accuse Christians of being hypocrites for celebrating our holiest days on pagan holidays. Or perhaps you are one of those Christians who don’t celebrate Christmas or Easter because they are on pagan holidays?You say EP II, Aramis says EP III. I don’t see much beyond improv either way, but it really doesn’t matter as long as I don’t have to put up with it.
It’s uncharacteristic that we disagree, but evidently (and to me, at least, surprisingly) we do in this matter. As Formosus said, a bishop cannot “dispense” everything.
It is EP 2 for a Mass of Reconciliation, believe me. If you listen carefully to the clip, you will notice that the commentator even announced it right as the prayer was starting. Bishop Zavala said it word for word. FYI, there are actually 14 official Eucharistic prayers in the Latin Catholic Church - 4 for the regular season, 4 for children’s masses, 2 for Masses of Reconciliation, and 4 for other special events.
Now that you know that it was an official prayer, are you willing to change your assessment a bit?
I’ve grown up with diversity all my life. So I tend to always try to look at things from different perspectives. The fact is, I personally prefer a traditional Mass, but I’m not going to disparage a Mass just because I am not used to it. I try to put myself in the place of one of those people and ask, “Am I being spiritually fed here? Am I worshipping God?” I can’t deny that these people would say “yes” to both questions. I easily compare it to when I get comments from Latins like, “I can’t believe you stand during the consecration. Don’t you have any respect for the Lord?” It’s the exact same situation - a person is not used to seeing a certain action, and immediately disparages it.
I believe I explained the matter of dispensation in my earlier post to brother Formosus. I agree that a bishop cannot dispense “everything.”
It’s not about norms or rules, it’s about tradition. Having seen you argue against the beliefs and practices of some sections of the Latin rite (e.g., the “absolutist” Petrine view) on the basis of the history and tradition of the church, it boggles my mind that you don’t see this in the same light. Forgive me if I come across as rude.
I disagree. It is about the liturgical norms that the Church establishes. You know very well that there have been liturgical changes in certain EOC’s. And there have been several in the Coptic Orthodox Church, a few in my lifetime. It’s my impression that Oriental Orthodox are more “old world” than Eastern Orthodox or Catholic Christians, and we simply don’t automatically rebel against our bishops’ decisions. It is my sincere belief that unless my bishop is preaching heresy, then my bishop knows better than me.
Uuugh! That was below the belt!
As mentioned above, it’s not about tradition because all our Liturgies have undergone certain revisions.Not at all. I appreciate frank discussions with my Christian brethren.
OK, if you say so. But it gives rise to the question, why a loose-leaf binder and not an actual missal?
In a word, no. Whether that text is “word-for-word” or not, I want no part of it. To continue with my “box 'o choklits” analogy, let’s just say I don’t do butter cremes.
I’ve known a lot of diversity, too, but one thing I can say is that I have never liked the Novus Ordo from the day it appeared. It’s not a matter of “not being used to it” but, rather, one of focus, decorum, and Tradition (both upper and lower case “t”). I see this case as nothing more than a horizontal “feel good” event, and that certainly isn’t “organic development” of anything other than the touchy-feely stuff from the late-'60s-early-'70s. And BTW, no, I don’t see a parallel between this and the standing vs kneeling issue.
I didn’t say that.
And I still think they do look like that.
Thanks.
That feeling is mutual. I suspect you might be singing a different tune if your liturgy was being destroyed by Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations. That is something that I, a “cradle Oriental,” am faced with constantly. And no, I do not automatically say my bishop (or any bishop) necessarily knows better than I which, in matters liturgical is, in fact, almost never the case. He/they may have the authority but that doesn’t mean he/they necessarily has/have the knowledge.
Forgive me for jumping in. I have found myself agreeing with Brother Marduk (truly, it happens more often than some would think), though only up to this point.
Perhaps I should have finished reading the thread before posting! I’ll defer to malphono’s more poignant and succinct points.