California Latinos fearful after immigration raids

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Texas_Roofer said:
umh
In post 37 you said " We are not criminalizing anyone" now you need to change subjects. Isn’t that always the case.
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I didn’t change subjects. I said we are not criminalizing anyone…the illegals do that themselves when they enter this country illegally. IF they came through the proper channels and took their turn…which they seem to not want to do…then that would be fine. They believe they are above the law of this land and choose to put themselves first…and that irritates me.

:heart:Blyss
 
Ituyu said:
Your biggest argument has alway been the LAW but unfortunately the law needs reform because it doesn’t work for us. I’ll agree with the laws that aim to prohibit the entry of serious criminals and those that pose health risks to us because that serves everyone. However, the arbitrary policies that closed the doors of “legal” entry to those that could have otherwise qualified do not serve our interests much less the Common Good…
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I agree with you here ituyu…the laws need changing. They need to be made more stringent. I also agree the laws should make special note of criminals who are dangerous, drug dealers etc. and definitely those who are health risks. Where we disagree is that the doors should remain closed to anyone who does not come her legally and follow the proper procedures. Our interests are not served by having millions of low skilled, uneducated people in this country. Those are not in sults, but facts that have been shown to be the case.

:heart:Blyss
 
Ituyu said:
Crininalizing people will not solve the problem. Immigrant bashing will not solve the problem. Bashing Hispanics will not solve the problem. WE need reform to accomplish that goal and that will require a change in status for the vast majority of those already here. That doesn’t mean that they become citizens immediately but it does mean bringing them out of the shadows and having them participate “legally” in the system. .
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But…they are criminals Ituyu…they became criminals when they crossed the border illegally. I agree, that we get nowhere by bashing immigrants nor Hispanics. I don’t believe that is what anyone here is doing. I agree they should not become citizens immediately, but at some point they should show allegiance to this country. Some do NOT want to become citizens and that bothers me. Why should we have them here then? They need first and foremost to come forward and register. They should have HEAVY fines and penalties levied upon them. They should have to check in regularly with immigration so we can see that they are paying those fines and if they don’t then they should be deported. That will be enough chances for them.

:heart:Blyss
 
BlyssfulDreamer said:
I agree with you here ituyu…the laws need changing. They need to be made more stringent.

We already have the most stringent immigration laws in our history. Those measures have failed and they will continue to fail. Look around. It’s time to make rational common sense changes to our policies.
I also agree the laws should make special note of criminals who are dangerous, drug dealers etc. and definitely those who are health risks.
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Ituyu said:
Blyss, legal status does NOT require and has never required them to become citizens. Current proposals would not require them to become citizens. We need them here just like we’ve needed all immigrants that came before.
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I understant the need and support the idea of guest workers. But I think you are mistaken about immigrants before. What other immigrants before came here but did not desire citizenship?
 
If they are so fearful of the raids, they can always pack up and go back home. How can anybody blame our country for enforcing our laws once in a while? These people are here ILLEGALLY. Nuff said.
 
Ituyu…you could pick any law that you don’t like and call it “unjust”. Whether the immigration laws are just or unjust is your opinion. I feel they are not strong enough. We need to stop the illegal immigratioj into this country and laws need to address that. The penalties must be much more harsh…or we will face another amnesty and another and another. You cannot pick and choose which laws you are 'willing" to obey because you think they are UNJUST. Like I have said to you before…if you think a law is unjust…work to get it changed. IF you cannot get it changed…then you must obey it. Those from other countries MUST obey our laws.

I never said that immigranmts were required to become ciizens…but I would have to wonder why they would choose not to. If they choose to permanently reside in this country and not become citizens I have to question their allegiance. That is MY opinion only.

:heart:Blyss
 
pnewton said:
I understant the need and support the idea of guest workers. But I think you are mistaken about immigrants before. What other immigrants before came here but did not desire citizenship?
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Not all holders of the Green Card choose to become citizens and they are not required to become citizens but their status is “legal”. Some even return to Mexico permanently but most only for visits. However, the younger they are the more likely that they will eventually choose to become citizens. I think that many in the older age category feel that even with “citizenship” that they will never be considered “American” and from much of what I’ve read on these threads, I understand that feeling but would encourage them to see beyond those feelings.
 
Ituyu said:
I think that many in the older age category feel that even with “citizenship” that they will never be considered “American” and from much of what I’ve read on these threads, I understand that feeling but would encourage them to see beyond those feelings.
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Why would you understand that feeling? LOL…good grief:rolleyes: …I think almost everyone has said that legal immigrants are more than welcomed.

:heart:Blyss
 
BlyssfulDreamer said:
Ituyu

…you could pick any law that you don’t like and call it “unjust”.

This is absolutely a false premise. There are many laws that I don’t like that I don’t consider “unjust” because they serve the “common good”. Parking laws, for example, are sometimes inconvenient, and I don’t enjoy paying them, but usually I pay the fine. When I’ve asked for a “hearing”, I have always won my case and the fine dropped.

Society has a right to expect that we obey our laws but it also has a right to expect that those laws serve a “just” purpose. What was the “just” purpose for denying people the opportunity to fill jobs that we needed filled? In this case, filling those jobs served the “common good” and we should have put these people through our screening process but we unwisely chose not to. Fortunately, they were able to fill those jobs anyway. How would we be served by deporting 12 million people? How are we served by having a shadow population in our midst? And, how are we served by having the “illegal” live in fear? Have these more severe and contradictory laws worked? Clearly Blyss, it’s time to fix this thing.
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BlyssfulDreamer said:
Why would you understand that feeling? LOL…good grief:rolleyes: …I think almost everyone has said that legal immigrants are more than welcomed.

:heart:Blyss
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Clearly Blyss, you don’t seem to understand some of the things you say. I invite you to review the titles of some of these threads and you will understand what I’m talking about. And furthermore, since you continue to use biased anti-immigrant and not just anti "illegal"sources, your welcoming of immigrants rings hollow to me. Certainly, you don’t seem to welcome the idea of a “legal” change in status of the “illegal”. Our laws change all the time and I don’t see why we can’t reform our immigration laws. It’s time.
 
Texas_Roofer said:
umh
In post 37 you said " We are not criminalizing anyone" now you need to change subjects. Isn’t that always the case.
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BlyssfulDreamer said:
I didn’t change subjects. I said we are not criminalizing anyone…the illegals do that themselves when they enter this country illegally. IF they came through the proper channels and took their turn…which they seem to not want to do…then that would be fine. ***They believe they are above the law ***of this land and choose to put themselves first…and that irritates me.

:heart:Blyss
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Are you impling the immigrants make U.S. Laws? Does the U.S. Congress decide what is legal or do the immigrants hold that power? Can you document your statements concerning immigrant beliefs?
 
Texas_Roofer said:
Are you impling the immigrants make U.S. Laws? Does the U.S. Congress decide what is legal or do the immigrants hold that power? Can you document your statements concerning immigrant beliefs?
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By the same reasoning legislatures are responsible for murderers being criminals because they enact the laws against murder. It is always more convenient to pass the buck than accept responsibility. Those who walk on the wrong side of the law entangle their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
 
pnewton said:
By the same reasoning legislatures are responsible for murderers being criminals because they enact the laws against murder. It is always more convenient to pass the buck than accept responsibility. Those who walk on the wrong side of the law entangle their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
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But laws against murder serve the “Common Good”. Denying legal status to people who come to work does not serve the “Common Good”. Legal immigration status would give these people the permission to work and require that they meet verifiable requisites. Work is not an inherent evil. Honest work does not harm society. When the law serves no just purpose and when it is “unjust”, how can we insist on its enforcement? Truth is, that we wouldn’t have 12 million “illegal” persons here if it were or needed to be enforced. Our immigration authorities, except for known criminals, have essentially looked the other way for a reason. .
 
Ituyu said:
But laws against murder serve the “Common Good”. Denying legal status to people who come to work does not serve the “Common Good”. .
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But this type of arguement begs the question. It is only valid if you already agree and is just another way of rewording the arguement. In any case, the one who breaks the law must take responsibility for that action. Even propenents of civil disobedience will not deny that. The consequenes must be weighed and not the blame shouldered, not shifted.
 
Ituyu said:
Clearly Blyss, you don’t seem to understand some of the things you say. I invite you to review the titles of some of these threads and you will understand what I’m talking about. And furthermore, since you continue to use biased anti-immigrant and not just anti "illegal"sources, your welcoming of immigrants rings hollow to me. Certainly, you don’t seem to welcome the idea of a “legal” change in status of the “illegal”. Our laws change all the time and I don’t see why we can’t reform our immigration laws. It’s time.
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Obvioulsy you do not understand Ituyu…I have NEVER said that I do not welcome immigrants…in fact…if you have read my posts, I have stated that I DO welcome legal immigrants. I do NOT welcome law breakers who seem to think they have special rights of entry into this country. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? I think you should name any anti-immigrant sources I have posted. They just state the facts…

:heart:Blyss
 
Ituyu said:
Society has a right to expect that we obey our laws but it also has a right to expect that those laws serve a “just” purpose. What was the “just” purpose for denying people the opportunity to fill jobs that we needed filled? In this case, filling those jobs served the “common good” and we should have put these people through our screening process but we unwisely chose not to. Fortunately, they were able to fill those jobs anyway. How would we be served by deporting 12 million people? How are we served by having a shadow population in our midst? And, how are we served by having the “illegal” live in fear? Have these more severe and contradictory laws worked? Clearly Blyss, it’s time to fix this thing.
Click to expand...
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Ituyu said:
Legal immigration status would give these people the permission to work and require that they meet verifiable requisites. Work is not an inherent evil. Honest work does not harm society. When the law serves no just purpose and when it is “unjust”, how can we insist on its enforcement? Truth is, that we wouldn’t have 12 million “illegal” persons here if it were or needed to be enforced. Our immigration authorities, except for known criminals, have essentially looked the other way for a reason. .
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Why should they be rewarded with legal status when they came here illegally? There are no justifications when the law is broken. Again…you tout the argument about the UNJUST laws…that doesn’t matter. What DOES matter is they are the laws of this land and they must be enforced. Change the laws if you feel the need…but obey them while they are on the books. If a majority of our representatives feel the laws must be changed…based on their own opinions or those of THEIR constituents…who they are elected to represent…then the laws will be changed. If they maintain the sataus quo…then that is the way it is and there is NO justification for breaking the law.

:heart:Blyss
 
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