First they used Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23 to demonstrate that all were sinners and worthy of hell. Then was Romans 5:8 that Christ died for those sins, ephesians 2:8-9 that only faith not works got one to heaven and then 1 John 5:13 to say that one must know you are saved. I said that one cannot know and we went around in circles. I pulled James 2:14-2:26 but he said these were just saying how if one was ungodly no one would listen too you. After that i bashed my head on his arguement due to my arrogant failure to study. Finally he gave me a pamphlet called The Gospel by Ronald Shea. I read it and it pretty much just expands on their main point that salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned.
Hi FireFromHeaven,
Let’s have a gander and these verses.
**Rom 3:23: “…since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (RSV)
Rom 6:23:“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (RSV)**
With regards to the second verse, you could argue that Paul is not necessarily speaking about damnation here but that the natural consequence of a sinful life is
death, as opposed to “eternal life” with God. However, since Catholics agree that the consequence of a sinful life in itself is damnation, I don’t think we have a problem here.
With regards the former verse, let’s look at it a bit more closely.
“For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.” (vv.20-28, RSV)
What seems to be the recurrent term here. Is it works? No, but law, or “works of the law”. To read this passage in Romans and say that Paul is saying that works have no salvific efficacy is far too simplistic. He is addressing a congregation of Jews (and some Gentiles) in Rome and reminding them that the works of the Mosaic law are not going to save anyone. Not because works themselves are irrelevant but because the Mosaic law has become irrelevant since it was fulfilled in Christ.
What else… Notice Paul says that we are saved by faith (and indeed, the Church teaches this) but he says this faith needs to be
received. The reception of faith is itself a work, that is, an act done.
Have all sinned? It sounds like this is what Paul is saying. But remember, he is arguing a point here and using typical rabbinic techniques, such as hyperbole. If Paul actually meant this, he would be saying that babies have also sinned, as have retarded people or those with severe brain damage, and even Jesus, but I’m sure no Protestant would agree with this. “All” is a catch-all term used for effect.
Rom 5:8: “But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.” (RSV)
Absolutely! Who would disagree with this!
Eph 2:8-9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (RSV)
Ah, this is a favourite Protestant biblical passage. For what these verses say the Church certainly does not contradict. But what do they say? (i) We have been
graced - that is, gifted - salvation; salvation is not something we can earn (if so, we might even boast about how we did); and (ii) it is through faith that we have accepted or received this grace (notice how this agrees with what Paul wrote in Romans above).
So does that mean works play no part? Hardly. In fact, in only the next verse Paul writes that we were “created in Christ Jesus for good works” (v.10) and actually spends a fair bit of time in the epistle condemning “works of darkness” (Eph 5:11) while encouraging good works. If works were irrelevant to salvation, why even bother?
1 John 5:13: “I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.” (RSV)
Ummm John is not saying that “you must know you are saved to be saved” but rather that those to whom he writes can be confident of their salvation. In fact, look at the next verse: “And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.” (v.14) What is the confidence we have in Christ? That if we ask anything according to his will, he will hear us. The confidence is
not that we have eternal salvation. Indeed, John then goes on to discuss mortal sin and actually says that a “brother” (which is code for “fellow Christian”) can commit such a deadly sin. Yet, presumably a “brother” believes in the name of the Son of God - yet, he might not be saved at all!
As for your use of James 2:14-26, well, the text does seem to suggest that faith and works are reflexive expressions, that is, faith is reflected in works, and works are reflective of faith. Therefore, while you might not be saved by your works, you do need to do good works in order to be saved, because without good works, your faith is no real faith.
But what if the missionary God calls uses his free will to become a software engineer instead of a missionary? Hopefully, that sort of thing doesn’t happen too often, but if it happens even once, there is some group of people that want a missionary and aren’t getting one, and his point is wrong.
