Calling all former Muslims!

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GREEKS
1914 400,000 conscripts perished in forced labor brigades
1922 100,000 massacred or burned alive in Smyrna
1916-1922 350,000 Pontions massacred or killed during forced deportations
1914-1922 900,000 perish from maltreatment, starvation and massacres; total of all other areas of Asia Minor
TOTAL: 1,750,000 Greek Christians martyred 1914-1922

ARMENIANS
1894-1896 300,000 massacred
1915-1916 1,500,000 perish in massacres and forced deportations (with subsidiaries to 1923)
1922 30,000 massacred or burned alive in Smyrna
TOTAL: 1,800,000 Armenian Christians martyred 1894-1923

SYRIANS AND NESTORIANS
1915-1917 100,000 Christians massacred

The native population of Asia Minor traces its Christian roots to the early days of Christianity. the Armenians, an ancient people, trace their origins back 2500 years. In 301 AD. the Armenian King Dftad declared Christianity as the kingdom’s official religion, making Armenia the first Christian political state in the world. The migration of Greek tribes to Asia Minor began just before 2,000 BC and the Greeks built dozens of cities such as Smyrna, Phocaea, Pergamon, Ephesus and Byzantium (Constantinople). The native inhabitants of Asia Minor, among the first to accept the message of Christianity, were later to be persecuted and uprooted from their lands because of that same faith. Turkish tribes plagued the region. Later another tribe, the Oyuz Turks who embraced Islam and ultimately produced the Ottoman Turks, conquered Persia, the Caliphate of Baghdad, and then the whole area presently occupied by Syria, Iraq and Palestine.

Under the Ottoman Empire the Christians suffered a steady decline. Forced conversions to Islam, the abduction of children to serve in the fanatical Janissary corps, persecutions and oppression reduced the Christian population. Oppression intensified, leading to Genocide. Christian clergy were a constant target of Turkish persecution, particularly once the 1894 policy of Armenian genocide had been declared by sultan Abdul Hamid.

Victims of horrible torture, many Orthodox clergy were martyred for their faith. Among the first was Metropolitan Chrysostomos who was martyred, not just to kill a man but, to insult a sacred religion and an ancient and honorable people. Chrysostomos was enthroned as Metropolitan of Smyrna on 10 May 1910. Metropolitan Chrysostomos courageously opposed the anti Christian rage of the turks and sought to raise international pressure against the persecution of Turkish Christians. He wrote many letters to European leaders and to the western press in an effort to expose the genocide policies of the Turks. In 1922, in unprotected Smyrna, Chrysostomos said to those begging him to flee: “It is the tradition of the Greek Church and the duty of the priest to stay with his congregation.”
 
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On 9 September crowds were rushing into the cathedral for shelter when Chrysostomos, pale from fasting and lack of sleep, led his last prayer. The Divine Liturgy ended as Turkish police came to the church and led Chrysostomos away. The Turkish General Nouredin Pasha, known as the “butcher of Ionia”, first spat on the Metropolitan and informed him that a tribunal in Angora (now Ankara) had already condemned him to death. A mob fell upon Chrysostomos and tore out his eyes. Bleeding profusely, he was dragged through the streets by his beard. He was beaten and kicked and parts of his body were cut off. All the while Chrysostomos, his face covered with blood, prayed: “Holy Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Every now and then, when he had the strength, he would raise his hand and bless his persecutors; a Turk, realizing what the Metropolitan was doing, cut off his hand with a sword. Metropolitan Chrysostomos was then hacked to pieced by the angry mob.

Among the hundreds of Armenian clergy who were persecuted and murdered were Bishop Khosrov Behrigian and Very Reverend Father Mgrdich’ Chghladian.

Bishop Behrigian (1869-1915) was born in Zara and became the primate for the Diocese of Caesarea/Kayseri in 1915. He was arrested by Turkish police upon his return from Etchmiadzin where he had just been consecrated bishop. Informed of his fate, the bishop asked for a bullet to the head. Deliberately ignoring his request, the police tied him to a “yataghan” where sheep were butchered an then proceeded to hack his body apart while he was still alive.

Father Chghladian was born in Tatvan. In May 1915, as part of the campaign of mass arrests, deportations and murders, the priest was tortured and displayed in a procession, led by sheiks and dervishes while accompanied by drums, through the streets of Dikranagerd. Once the procession returned to the mosque, in the presence of government officials, the sheiks poured oil over the priest and burned him alive.

Four of the martyred bishops who were murdered between 1921-1922 are today elevated to sainthood in the Greek Orthodox Church: They are, in addition to Metropolitan Chrysostomos, Bishops Efthimios, Gregorios and Ambrosios.

Bishop Efthimios of Amasia was captured by the Turkish police and tortured daily for 41 days. In the last days of his life he chanted his own funeral memorial until finally dying in his cell on 29 May 1921. Three days later a written order for his execution arrived from Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk).

Metropolitan Gregorios of Kydonion remained with his church until the end, helping 20,000 of his 35,000 parishioners escape to Mytilene and other free parts of Greece. On 3 October 1922, the remaining 15,000 Orthodox Christians were executed; the Metropolitan was saved in order to be buried alive.

Metropolitan Ambrosios of Moshonesion, along with 12 priests and 6,000 Christians, were sent by the Turks on a forced deportation march to Central Asia Minor. All of them perished on the road, some slain by Turkish irregulars and civilians, the remainder left to die of starvation. Bishop Ambrosios died on 15 September 1922 when Turkish police nailed horseshoes to his feet and then cut his body into pieces.

“I was five or six years old in 1922, and I still remember the songs of Akrita and the mourning of the Greek women who carried baskets full of severed heads down from the mountains. I will never forget the women who suddenly realized that one of the heads in the basket she carried was that of her son.” - Constantine Koukides, refugee from Pontius

“I have given orders to my Death Units to exterminate without mercy or pity, men, women, and children belonging to the Polish speaking race. It is only in this manner we can acquire the vital territory which we need. After all, who remembers the extermination of the Armenians?” - Adolf Hitler, 22 August 1939
(Editors Notes: We cannot even well imagine but “50 Million Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust” is not the correct number, as we have learned from Alexander Solzhenitsyn that more then 66.5 million Orthodox Christians also perished from 1917 and onward during the times of the Soviet Union. Secondly the New Martyrs of Serbia are increasing, the killing of innocent people, the destruction of Churches, Monasteries, Cemeteries, and homes, as well as a massive killings of Serbian Orthodox Christians, and countless missing people.)

Holy New Priest
Martyr Stefan of Kosovo,
Pray Unto GOD For Us!

Holy New Martyrs, and
Confessors Of Holy Orthodox Faith,
Pray Unto GOD For Us!

GLORY BE TO GOD FOR ALL THINGS!
 
“Women are defiicent in religion and reasoning.” -Muhammad.
Still the women are far better than those in the bible. According to the bible, the woman is the root of all evil. They taught that woman did not have any soul. i.e. human soul. It was as if the woman was an animal.
 
Sad but true. Isn’t it paradoxical that parents should teach their children not to lie yet let an erroneous book dictated by an illiterate determine what is the truth and what is wrong?
**You seem more knowledgeable person on Judaism. Even your signature in your post testifies.

What does Jewish Talmud really teach about Jesus Christ? With what kind of attitude towards Jesus Christ, Jewish kids are raised? Please enlighten us.

Thanks**
 
Still the women are far better than those in the bible. According to the bible, the woman is the root of all evil. They taught that woman did not have any soul. i.e. human soul. It was as if the woman was an animal.[/COIZE]
I cited something you claim your prophet said.

Cite something from the Bible to support your allegation.
 
“Women are defiicent in religion and reasoning.” -Muhammad.
**Your quote is not a true/whole picture of women status in Islam, you know that, right?

It is only Islam ( submision to the Will of God Almighty-religion of all true Prophets of God Almighty) can teach/guide us the true status of women, in the sight of God Almighty, as He alone knows who deserves what, as, we all are His creation.

Now coming to the Judeo-Pauline Christianity:

Why did God create Adam first? Why he did not create Eve?
Why the first person of your Trinity dogma, begot a Son and not a Daughter?
Why the so-called “UNCREATED” second person of your Trinity Dogma is male and not a Female?
Why your God’s all disciples were men and none of then was woman…not even His Mother? Was she not eligible to atleast become His Son’s disciple? How about the other women of His time…say Mary Magdalene…?
From OT to NT, patriarchs, priesthood, monarchy, disciples, apostles and Church leadership…ecc… all are males…why?**​
 
Salaam/peace
Wasnt the quran written by MEN also??? Who penned it??? :rolleyes:
Quran is words of God Almighty --came to the last Prophet ( pbuh) through Angel Jibril / Gabriel (p).

To save the holy words of God free from corruption , Muslims memorised those & wrote down since the beginning. There is no human author of holy Quran. No human being added or deleted even any single word from that holy book.

Several times not only words but many verses were deleted , added , again deleted from Bible . Ask any Bible scholar.
 
**
1 Coronthians 11:7-9
**

7 A man, on the other hand, should not cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;

9 nor was man created for woman, but woman for man;

( Catholics’ New American Bible)

Here, 1 Cor 11:9 “indicates that the covering is a sign of woman’s subordination. Because of the angels: a surprising additional reason, which the context does not clarify.” — NAB

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PZG.HTM#$4C9

What Holy Quran says:

Sura al-Nisa 4:1 reads as follows:

“O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single nafs, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence God, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you.”​
 
Salaam/peace
Quran is words of God Almighty --came to the last Prophet ( pbuh) through Angel Jibril / Gabriel (p).

To save the holy words of God free from corruption , Muslims memorised those & wrote down since the beginning. There is no human author of holy Quran. No human being added or deleted even any single word from that holy book.

Several times not only words but many verses were deleted , added , again deleted from Bible . Ask any Bible scholar.
These presumptions concerning the supposed preservation of the Koran and the textual corruption of the former revelations have already been debunked by me and other Christian posters on several threads so far.

The Koran acknowledges the fact that some of its verses were perverted during the time of the supposed revelation, long before its compilation as a book:

Surah 41:40
Lo! those who distort Our revelations are not hid from Us. Is he who is hurled into the Fire better, or he who cometh secure on the Day of Resurrection ? Do what ye will. Lo! He is Seer of what ye do.

More, the Koran admits that its text was repetitively modified although these weird textual modifications (additions/deletions) are ascribed to God through the innovated notion of abrogation:

Surah 2:106
Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things ?

Surah 16:101
And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

Surah 13:39
Allah effaceth what He will, and establisheth (what He will), and with Him is the source of ordinance.

Here we have a god that does not let people distort his scripture because the act of distortion primarily belongs to him! :eek:
 
**Your quote is not a true/whole picture of women status in Islam, you know that, right?

It is only Islam ( submision to the Will of God Almighty-religion of all true Prophets of God Almighty) can teach/guide us the true status of women, in the sight of God Almighty, as He alone knows who deserves what, as, we all are His creation.
**[/INDENT]
The so-called true status of women in the sight of Mohammad, the false god of the man-made ideology named Islam, is far worse than the status of women at the time of Meccan paganism. 😉
**
Now coming to the Judeo-Pauline Christianity:

Why did God create Adam first? Why he did not create Eve?**[/INDENT]
I should thank you first for all these silly questions before analysing the status of women in Mohammad’s fantasies.

The God of the Bible creates BOTH Adam and Eve in His image and likeness whereas Mohammad teaches (through wishful thinking) that God created only Adam as His “viceroy” on earth (Surah 2:30). The account of Eve’s creation and her name are mysteriously missing from the Islamic scripture. 🙂
**
Why the first person of your Trinity dogma, begot a Son and not a Daughter?**[/INDENT]
Here is the counterpart of your stupid question: According to the Koran, why was Jesus born of Mary rather than Mary was born of Jesus? :rolleyes:
**
Why the so-called “UNCREATED” second person of your Trinity Dogma is male and not a Female?**[/INDENT]
Why is your Allah a MALE God, and not FEMALE? Why does the Koran always call Him as MELIK (King/male) rather than as MELIKE (Queen/female) :rolleyes:
**
Why your God’s all disciples were men and none of then was woman…not even His Mother? Was she not eligible to atleast become His Son’s disciple? How about the other women of His time…say Mary Magdalene…?**[/INDENT]
Now you are not only uttering nonsense, but also slandering the New Testament by telling lies about it. Jesus had female disciples too (for instance, Martha and Mary). Jesus preached to women even when His other disciples were not present (Samaritan woman is an example!).
**
From OT to NT, patriarchs, priesthood, monarchy, disciples, apostles and Church leadership…ecc… all are males…why?**[/INDENT]
Why does your Koran deny the fact that the Bible contained the accounts of FEMALE prophets (Miriam) and judges (Deborah)? Why does your Koran contradict this fact by asserting that messengers were only MALE??
What about the patriarchs in the Koran? Why does Islam teach that a MAN (Abraham) is the FATHER of religion??? Why no female imam in Islam?? Why no female Khaliphs???

:rolleyes:
 
**

Here, 1 Cor 11:9 “indicates that the covering is a sign of woman’s subordination**. Because of the angels: a surprising additional reason, which the context does not clarify.” — NAB

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PZG.HTM#$4C9

What Holy Quran says:

Sura al-Nisa 4:1 reads as follows:

“O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single nafs, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence God, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you.”​
I hope you were sober while citing this verse from the Koran, which is irrelevant to your pointless argument. 🤷

This verse endorses the Biblical doctrine that Adam (Man) was created FIRST and Eve (the woman) (her name is missing from the Koran!) was created from the man and for the man. Thus, the phrase “one single nafs” (self) pertains to Adam (male) only. The Koran confirms the concept of hierarchy with regard to male-female relations in marital life. 😉
 
These presumptions concerning the supposed preservation of the Koran and the textual corruption of the former revelations have already been debunked by me and other Christian posters on several threads so far.

The Koran acknowledges the fact that some of its verses were perverted during the time of the supposed revelation, long before its compilation as a book:

Surah 41:40
Lo! those who distort Our revelations are not hid from Us. Is he who is hurled into the Fire better, or he who cometh secure on the Day of Resurrection ? Do what ye will. Lo! He is Seer of what ye do.

More, the Koran admits that its text was repetitively modified although these weird textual modifications (additions/deletions) are ascribed to God through the innovated notion of abrogation:

Surah 2:106
Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things ?

Surah 16:101
And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

Surah 13:39
Allah effaceth what He will, and establisheth (what He will), and with Him is the source of ordinance.

Here we have a god that does not let people distort his scripture because the act of distortion primarily belongs to him! :eek:
All the above verses of the quran that you have presented are concerning the verses revealed before the quran. The verses of the Quran superceded and abrogated the verses of the old scriptures. No verse of the quran is abrogated. I challenge you to show me even one verse which is abrogated.
 
All the above verses of the quran that you have presented are concerning the verses revealed before the quran. The verses of the Quran superceded and abrogated the verses of the old scriptures. No verse of the quran is abrogated. I challenge you to show me even one verse which is abrogated.
This is a lie. Your faulty allegation is refuted by the following verses in the Koran:

Surah 5:43
How come they unto thee for judgment **when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment **(for them) ? Yet even after that they turn away. Such (folk) are not believers.

Surah 5:47
Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

Surah 5:68
Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord.

These verses prove that God supposedly abrogated some verses of the Koran and modified the text of His so-called last book. 😉

An example for the abrogation of the verses in the Koran:

Surah 2:256
There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error.

This verse was apparently replaced with the following verse:

Surah 9:5
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.
 
This is a lie. Your faulty allegation is refuted by the following verses in the Koran:

Surah 5:43
How come they unto thee for judgment **when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment **(for them) ? Yet even after that they turn away. Such (folk) are not believers.

Surah 5:47
Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

Surah 5:68
Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord.

These verses prove that God supposedly abrogated some verses of the Koran and modified the text of His so-called last book. 😉
;/quote]

That was a good plan for the people of the books to follow their own books. They were running away from their own books. Islam told them not to do that. What is the harm in that?
An example for the abrogation of the verses in the Koran:
 
That was a good plan for the people of the books to follow their own books. They were running away from their own books. Islam told them not to do that. What is the harm in that?
I wish you could understand my reason for quoting those verses. Your assumption that the Koran was revealed to abrogate the former revelations is proven false by all those verses asking Jews and Christians to follow their own scripture for guidance.🤷
**
Bad example. You are mixing up the war verses. The pagans had been attacking madinah for about 8 years. They had been given enough chance to mend their ways. But they had kept up the fight. They had killed many people.
When they were fully defeated and Makkah was liberated of the pagan rule, the prophet forgave all of them who stopped opposition. If any one wanted to become a Muslim, he ould do so. Any who wanted to remain a pagan (idol worshipper) he was told to leave the city withing four months. If any did not leave idol worship and did not leave the city, THEY WERE TO BE KILLED IF FOUND IN THE AREA>
Angelos, you being a previous muslim should tell the complete truth.Otherwise we will do it.

There is no contradiction and no abrogation.**
It is a pity that you consider FACTS as bad example. This is your scripture, so you should not be ashamed of its verses.

I am not interested in the reasons underlying the drastic shift in Mohammad’s policies and doctrines. If you deny that Surah 2:256 was replaced with Surah 9:5, you will have to acknowledge that God in Islam cannot decide if there is compulsion in religion or not. If there is no compulsion in religion, the verse which states otherwise by asking Muslims to FORCE pagans to conversion cannot be telling the truth. Once there was no compulsion in religion, but this doctrine was abandoned later when Muslims resorted to guerilla tactics to forcibly convert pagans. This IS abrogation. 😉
 
No verse of the quran is abrogated.
Yes there is :

Sahih Bukhari :

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 33
Narrated Nafi:
Ibn 'Umar recited:
“They had a choice, either fast or feed a poor for every day …” and added, “This Verse is abrogated.”

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 34:
Narrated Salama:
When the Divine Revelation:
“For those who can fast, they had a choice either fast, or feed a poor for every day,” (2.184) was revealed, it was permissible for one to give a ransom and give up fasting, till the Verse succeeding it was revealed and abrogated it.

Sahih Muslim

Book 003, Number 0675:
Abu al. ‘Ala’ b. al-Shikhkhir said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) abrogated some of his commands by others, just as the Qur’an abrogates some part with the other.

Sunan Abu Dawud

Book 12, Number 2275:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three monthly courses; and then said: And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months. This was abrogated from the former verse. Again he said: (O ye who believe, if ye wed believing women) and divorce them before ye have touched them, then there is no period that ye should reckon.

an example of abrogation :

[9:103] Take alms out of their property, you would cleanse them and purify them thereby, and pray for them; surely your prayer is a relief to them; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

abrogates :

[2:3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.

reference : Ibn Abbas
 
I suppose the abrogation changing the qibla from Jerusalem to Makkah wasn’t really an abrogation?

I guess those Muslim exegetes and jurists were just making stuff up?

Thank you for sharing your beautiful story, Angelo. Living in Palermo and Western Sicily for some time, I came along more than a few converts, but very few with the added backdrop of war in their homeland.

May G*d bless you and keep you.
 
Originally Posted by cathopologist
Sad but true. Isn’t it paradoxical that parents should teach their children not to lie yet let an erroneous book dictated by an illiterate determine what is the truth and what is wrong?
**You seem more knowledgeable person on Judaism. Even your signature in your post testifies.

What does Jewish Talmud really teach about Jesus Christ? With what kind of attitude towards Jesus Christ, Jewish kids are raised? Please enlighten us.

Thanks**
**No reply yet from cathopologist…amazing.

May be Angelos or any Catholic who is an expert in Jewish theology can answer my question.

No, I don’t want you to quote from Prof. Israel Shahak or any other so-called “self-hating Jew”'s books/sayings. If you know Talmud, please quote directly with the references…Thanks**
 
I wish you could understand my reason for quoting those verses. Your assumption that the Koran was revealed to abrogate the former revelations is proven false by all those verses asking Jews and Christians to follow their own scripture for guidance.🤷
Thanks for giving some credit to Quran. I may have to withdraw my argument if you also do not look for abrogation in the Quran. Otherwise, there verses from God in the bible. They are also verses. Why they cannot be abrogated.?
It is a pity that you consider FACTS as bad example. This is your scripture, so you should not be ashamed of its verses.
I am not interested in the reasons underlying the drastic shift in Mohammad’s policies and doctrines. If you deny that Surah 2:256 was replaced with Surah 9:5, you will have to acknowledge that God in Islam cannot decide if there is compulsion in religion or not. If there is no compulsion in religion, the verse which states otherwise by asking Muslims to FORCE pagans to conversion cannot be telling the truth. Once there was no compulsion in religion, but this doctrine was abandoned later when Muslims resorted to guerilla tactics to forcibly convert pagans. This IS abrogation. 😉
**You are not interested in history because it disturbs you. Please note that there was no compulsion on the pagans that they must convert. They had the liberty to go away with their property and their pagan beliefs within 4 months. I believe 4 months is not a short time. They were the previous enemies anyhow condemned to death as per their own bad behaviour.

Are you in good senses and you can see good from bad or not?**
 
trustme80:
an example of abrogation :
[9:103] Take alms out of their property, you would cleanse them and purify them thereby, and pray for them; surely your prayer is a relief to them; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
abrogates :
[2:3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
** How does verse 9:103 abrogate verse 2:3? can you explain please? Do not use just one verse for comparison. Try to use the surrounding one or two verses also. Who told you that it abrogated verse 2:3??**
 
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