Calling all non-Catholic Christians!

[jmcrae]

Your first premis is wrong. Protestants do not believe that Cothoicism is completely false. We agree on some subject, like the Trinity, the resurrection of Christ, that there is a heaven and angles, there is a hell, the importance of the 10 Commandments and many other things. What we disagree with is on authrotiy , the Bible, salvation, traditions and other things.

Okay. So, which of the Protesant churches is correct on all of these issues?

In other words, if someone is looking for Christ’s Church, and we’ve decided that the Catholic Church is not it, which of the Protestant churches is the one that he should join? (Because they can’t all be right, since they disagree with each other, as well.)

 

[justasking4]

I didn’t ask my questions until post #5.

You said:

And I asked, According to whose interpretation?

So, who is the authority to determine if what the protestant church teaches lines up with the Scriptures?

Its not “who in authority” who determines the meaning but the texts of Scripture used to support the doctrine that determines if the doctrine is true or not. No church or individual can claim they have the truth if the facts of scripture don’t support the doctrine.

 

[justasking4]

Okay. So, which of the Protesant churches is correct on all of these issues?

In other words, if someone is looking for Christ’s Church, and we’ve decided that the Catholic Church is not it, which of the Protestant churches is the one that he should join? (Because they can’t all be right, since they disagree with each other, as well.)

You should look at the doctrinal statements on what that church professes and believes. If this is not in sync with the Scriptures then you should not join it.

 

[jmcrae]

You should look at the doctrinal statements on what that church professes and believes. If this is not in sync with the Scriptures then you should not join it.

Okay. So, I assume you’ve done this, so why should I re-do all of your hard work - which one is it?

 

[justasking4]

Okay. So, I assume you’ve done this, so why should I re-do all of your hard work - which one is it?

Not sure i understand you. Can you clarify?

 

[jmcrae]

Not sure i understand you. Can you clarify?

Okay.

**Assumption: **The Catholic Church is wrong. Contrary to its historical claims, it is not the Church that Christ founded.

Fact: Christ founded a Church. (This is in the Bible.)

Hypothesis: If the Church that Christ founded is not the Catholic Church, then it must be one of the Protestant churches.

Question: How can we tell which Protestant Church is the Church that Christ founded?

You said:

You should look at the doctrinal statements on what that church professes and believes. If this is not in sync with the Scriptures then you should not join it.

I say, Okay, great!! But, instead of me doing this, why don’t you (since you have already determined which of the Protestant churches is the one that Christ established by using this method of discernment) just tell me which one it is?

So that I don’t have to sift through how many hundreds of Protestant denominations looking for it, because that will most likely take me until the end of my life on this earth.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Its not “who in authority” who determines the meaning but the texts of Scripture used to support the doctrine that determines if the doctrine is true or not. No church or individual can claim they have the truth if the facts of scripture don’t support the doctrine.

Then (for crying out loud!) how does one accurately determine if the scriptures support a local church’s doctrines?

I can go to protestant church #1, and they’ll tell me they follow the scriptures. They’ll also tell me Christ is fully present in the Eucharist. They cite John 6 and Matthew 26 to support their doctrine.

I can to to protestant church #2, and they’ll tell me they follow the scriptures. They’ll also tell my the Eucharist is only a symbol. They cite John 10:9 to support their doctrine (a claim Jesus spoke in metaphors).

Now, how on earth am I supposed to tell which of these churches has the correct doctrine? And don’t tell me to check scripture. I’ve already done that and so have these churches! Obviously they don’t think they’re following doctrines that are not supported by scripture.

How do I tell which claim is correct? Both of them cite scripture to support their doctrines.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Another baiting thread.

 

[khutcheson]

Another baiting thread.

Indeed.

Don’t people understand that a lot of us wouldn’t be here if we thought the Catholic Church was “completely false”? I happen to think that the Catholic Church is right on most things. I don’t think I have ever met a Protestant who thinks the Catholic Church is completely false.

 

[guanophore]

The earliest Christians did not venerate images, Pray to Mary, or believe in the assumption, so no, I do not think they were Roman Catholic

I think this is true, except for the Image of God, who is Jesus. Mary was still alive, so when they wanted her prayers, they would just go over to her house. She was not assumed until her days on earth were ended, and that was after most of the NT was already written. They were MOST CERTAINLY Roman Catholic, since there were no such thing for about 5 centuries.

I do not contend the apostles taught a doctrine contrary to what is in scripture

And neither to Catholics today!

 

[Kay_Cee]

Well, I’m looking at it this way: If the Catholic Church does not exist, which church should a Christian join?

j4a gave a list of how one finds the correct church:

First look at what that protestant church teaches about God and Christ. Does it line up with the Scriptures?

Secondly, do they believe that the Scriptures are the inspired-inerrant Word of God?

Thirdly, do they believe that the Scriptures are the basis for all beliefs and practices for a Christian?

Fourth, what do they teach what the gospel message is?

These would be just some of the many issues to determine which protestant church is teaching the truth.

I have some questions about that, which I posted, but have yet to receive an answer.

I can go to protestant church #1, and they’ll tell me they follow the scriptures. They’ll also tell me Christ is fully present in the Eucharist. They cite John 6 and Matthew 26 to support their doctrine.

I can to to protestant church #2, and they’ll tell me they follow the scriptures. They’ll also tell my the Eucharist is only a symbol. They cite John 10:9 to support their doctrine (a claim Jesus spoke in metaphors).

Now, how on earth am I supposed to tell which of these churches has the correct doctrine? And don’t tell me to check scripture. I’ve already done that and so have these churches! Obviously they don’t think they’re following doctrines that are not supported by scripture.

How do I tell which claim is correct? Both of them cite scripture to support their doctrines.

I’m not trying to bait anyone. I’m trying to figure out how a Christian in the situation I mention determines which denomination is teaching the truth, especially considering that j4a says the denomination should “believe that the Scriptures are the basis for all beliefs and practices.”

Although the situation is hypothetical, the problem isn’t. How does a Christian looking to join a church determine which is the right one, in light of the fact that different denominations claim to go by the Bible but teach opposing doctrines?

Just how does one resolve this dilemma?

 

[Kay_Cee]

I think this is true, except for the Image of God, who is Jesus. Mary was still alive, so when they wanted her prayers, they would just go over to her house. She was not assumed until her days on earth were ended, and that was after most of the NT was already written. They were MOST CERTAINLY Roman Catholic, since there were no such thing for about 5 centuries.

Guanophore, please do not allow this thread to be hijacked. I know it’s tempting to answer comments about the Catholic Church, but let’s please stay on topic.

Folks, please remember this thread is not about Catholicism!

 

[khutcheson]

I’m not trying to bait anyone. I’m trying to figure out how a Christian in the situation I mention determines which denomination is teaching the truth, especially considering that j4a says the denomination should “believe that the Scriptures are the basis for all beliefs and practices.”

Although the situation is hypothetical, the problem isn’t. How does a Christian looking to join a church determine which is the right one, in light of the fact that different denominations claim to go by the Bible but teach opposing doctrines?

Just how does one resolve this dilemma?

My solution (since I am in that exact situation) is to look for a church that doesn’t try to water down the gospel for the sake of popularity, recognise that some doctrines (OSAS, predestination) are confusing and that there is support for more than one position in the Scriptures, and pray/trust that the Holy Spirit will lead me to the truth while at the same time acknowledging that a correct understanding of many of the doctrines that we spend so much time debating is probably NOT a necessary precondition to salvation.

To put it another way, a pure at heart saint with a 6th grader’s understanding of the gospel who lives a life of love and sacrifice is probably a heck of a lot closer to the Kingdom of Heaven than many biblical scholars who spend their lives debating obscure doctrine.

 

[Kay_Cee]

My solution (since I am in that exact situation) is to look for a church that doesn’t try to water down the gospel for the sake of popularity, recognise that some doctrines (OSAS, predestination) are confusing and that there is support for more than one position in the Scriptures, and pray/trust that the Holy Spirit will lead me to the truth while at the same time acknowledging that a correct understanding of many of the doctrines that we spend so much time debating is probably NOT a necessary precondition to salvation.

To put it another way, a pure at heart saint with a 6th grader’s understanding of the gospel who lives a life of love and sacrifice is probably a heck of a lot closer to the Kingdom of Heaven than many biblical scholars who spend their lives debating obscure doctrine.

This is all fine, but it doesn’t really answer the question.

Trusting the Holy Spirit is something all of us should do, but when you get your answer, how do you determine it’s actually coming from God?

Scripture tells us the devil can disguise himself as an angel of light. We also, being all too human, often tend to listen to what we want to hear instead of what we should.

Besides, the two churches in my scenario would certainly have already invoked the Holy Spirit in determining their doctrines. Yet, somehow, they have come to opposing conclusions.

Now, since they can’t both be right, one of them has to be wrong. The Holy Spirit, since He is God, will not lie. Yet, when I question the ministers of both congregations, they say they are listening to the Holy Spirit. They both seem like good, sincere, godly men who want to do the right thing, as do I. If they can’t tell when it’s really the Holy Spirit leading them, how on earth am I supposed to tell for certain when He’s leading me? If your answer is, “You just know”, well, both these ministers claim that they “just know” too. In fact, telling me “you just know” sounds an awful lot like a Mormon “burning in the bosom”, that is, is sounds awfully subjective.

So now what? How do I objectively determine who’s right?

 

[khutcheson]

---

This is all fine, but it doesn’t really answer the question.

Trusting the Holy Spirit is something all of us should do, but when you get your answer, how do you determine it’s actually coming from God?

Scripture tells us the devil can disguise himself as an angel of light. We also, being all too human, often tend to listen to what we want to hear instead of what we should.

Besides, the two churches in my scenario would certainly have already invoked the Holy Spirit in determining their doctrines. Yet, somehow, they have come to opposing conclusions.

Now, since they can’t both be right, one of them has to be wrong. The Holy Spirit, since He is God, will not lie. Yet, when I question the ministers of both congregations, they say they are listening to the Holy Spirit. They both seem like good, sincere, godly men who want to do the right thing, as do I. If they can’t tell when it’s really the Holy Spirit leading them, how on earth am I supposed to tell for certain when He’s leading me? If your answer is, “You just know”, well, both these ministers claim that they “just know” too. In fact, telling me “you just know” sounds an awful lot like a Mormon “burning in the bosom”, that is, is sounds awfully subjective.

So now what? How do I objectively determine who’s right?

I’m just a dumb Marine but I don’t think there is an objective answer to your question. I don’t have time to go back and re-read this whole thread to try to determine if you question is sincere, or simply a rhetorical device to somehow point out that the Catholic Church is right and Protestants wrong. If that is the case, and you are trying to point to the validity of the Catholic Church I still think that the root of your faith is subjective and a gift of the Holy Spirit.

I agree that’s uncomfortable. It’s why I cling to Sola Scriptura. It gives me a rock to hang on to and appears more objective, however the more I learn about how the canon of Scripture was collected, the more I wonder about that.

 

[guanophore]

---

I’m just a dumb Marine but I don’t think there is an objective answer to your question. I don’t have time to go back and re-read this whole thread to try to determine if you question is sincere, or simply a rhetorical device to somehow point out that the Catholic Church is right and Protestants wrong. If that is the case, and you are trying to point to the validity of the Catholic Church I still think that the root of your faith is subjective and a gift of the Holy Spirit.

I agree that’s uncomfortable. It’s why I cling to Sola Scriptura. It gives me a rock to hang on to and appears more objective, however the more I learn about how the canon of Scripture was collected, the more I wonder about that.

Wecome to CAF, and glad you are learning about your family history!

 

[Kay_Cee]

I’m just a dumb Marine but I don’t think there is an objective answer to your question. I don’t have time to go back and re-read this whole thread to try to determine if you question is sincere, or simply a rhetorical device to somehow point out that the Catholic Church is right and Protestants wrong. If that is the case, and you are trying to point to the validity of the Catholic Church I still think that the root of your faith is subjective and a gift of the Holy Spirit.

I agree that’s uncomfortable. It’s why I cling to Sola Scriptura. It gives me a rock to hang on to and appears more objective, however the more I learn about how the canon of Scripture was collected, the more I wonder about that.

Actually, my point is that you have to search outside scripture to find the answer. As it is, I’ve already been told to seek guidance from the Holy Spirit, which is, essentially, going outside scripture–even if it’s merely asking for the correct interpretation of scripture.

My mother was faced with this dilemma when she was trying to decide which church to join: so many churches taught so many different, and sometimes opposing doctrines. Which was right? How does one determine that?

I know how she answered the question, but I’m interested in how others would, especially those devoted to sola scriptura. If there is an answer to this in scripture, I’ve never seen it. Perhaps someone could point one out to me.

And yes, my question is quite sincere. I’m not “trying to point to the vailidity of the Catholic Church”, at least not in this thread (since for the purposes of this thread Catholicism, essentially, doesn’t exist. It would be impossible, within the boundaries of such a hypothetical scenario, to point to the validity of a non-existent church).

Let’s stick to the scenario I pointed out above where we have two denominations teaching opposing doctrines about the Eucharist. How does a Protestant solve this dilemma? I’m really very curious to know. I’ve often wondered how Protestants decide which denomination to belong to.

Oh, and I echo guanophore’s welcome. I hope we can learn much from each other.

 

[jmcrae]

---

I’m just a dumb Marine but I don’t think there is an objective answer to your question. I don’t have time to go back and re-read this whole thread to try to determine if you question is sincere, or simply a rhetorical device to somehow point out that the Catholic Church is right and Protestants wrong. If that is the case, and you are trying to point to the validity of the Catholic Church I still think that the root of your faith is subjective and a gift of the Holy Spirit.

I agree that’s uncomfortable. It’s why I cling to Sola Scriptura. It gives me a rock to hang on to and appears more objective, however the more I learn about how the canon of Scripture was collected, the more I wonder about that.

The Scriptures tell us quite plainly that Jesus founded a Church. (Matthew 16:18-19) He promised that His Church would be around until the end of time, protected from “the gates of Hell” (any kind of doctrinal error) by the Holy Spirit, to teach us all true doctrine and to guide us in the right path with regard to moral living.

In Acts 15, we see the Apostles making use of the authority that Christ gave them (Matthew 18:18), rather than looking to the Scriptures (Old Testament) for their answers. In fact, their conclusions and the rulings that they made go completely contrary to what seems to be required under Old Testament law, since at that time, Christianity was still a sect of Judaism, and the Old Testament is abundantly clear that in order to convert to Judaism, Gentiles must submit to the Law of Moses (including dietary law), and be circumcised.

One explanation is that “Sola Scriptura wasn’t in effect, yet,” and that the Book of Acts itself is in the Bible. (It was put there by a Catholic Pope, several centuries after the events described in it took place.) Which raises a new question - when (if ever) did Sola Scriptura “come into effect” and why is there no record of this quite radical change in Church policy anywhere in the Scriptures themselves? Certainly, the Early Fathers (the leadership of the subsequent generations of the Early Church) saw themselves as successors to the Apostles, with the Bishop of Rome as the “pre- eminent authority,” to use St. Irenaeus’ words , book III, chapter 3)Against the Heresies due to the fact that the Bishop of Rome was the Successor to the Chief Apostle and Shepherd of the Church (John 21:15-19), St. Peter.

Now, if the modern-day Catholic Church is not that Church, then where is that Church?

 

[deacon_d]

Hypothetically, let us say that the Catholic Church is indeed completely false:

Among all the other denominations, where is Christian truth? Everyone argues that the Catholic Church is full of man-made changes and thus has fallen into error. Though every Protestant church is blatantly man-made. They came hundreds of years after Christ and presume to be individually inspired toward truth.

So, again, hypothetically speaking, the Catholic Church is wrong. Which Protestant denomination is correct? Which Non-Denominational church is correct? Which interpretation of the Bible is correct? You guys cannot trust Catholicism, then which of these man-made churches and interpretations are we to go to for truth? There cannot be a universal “spiritual” Christian church without theological unity. Why is it taking two thousand years after Christ’s resurrection for people to figure out Christianity? Did Jesus not teach His Apostle’s well enough to pass it through the generations? Was Jesus lying when He said He would be with His Church always?

Instead of listing the doctrines of Catholicism you cannot understand, show me the reasons why a Protestant church is superior among another Protestant church, etc.

If the Catholic Church is so wrong, why do you trust it enough to trust the Bible that she gave us? Despite the lack of books in a Protestant Bible, the rest was compiled by the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church is so wrong how did it compile the New Testament correctly but pervert the rest of the religion in the meantime?

Jesus did not send His disciples out to teach differently. So each denomination teaching differently cannot be what Christ intended.

I desire any responses!

Here’s a hypothetical back to you. The reformers were Catholics yes?? Yes. So technically speaking when the reformers broke off, that new movement consisted of Catholics. So really Protestants are Catholics. Catholics in disagreement with Rome that is. How do we know the Holy Spirit didn’t create this move?? If your contention is that the Holy Spirit only reveals the truth to Rome, then Rome is no different than the gnostics.

Now let’s see what happened to those guys???

If the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to Catholics. Which group?? Catholic Senior or Catholic Junior??

 

[Kay_Cee]

Here’s a hypothetical back to you. The reformers were Catholics yes?? Yes. So technically speaking when the reformers broke off, that new movement consisted of Catholics. So really Protestants are Catholics. Catholics in disagreement with Rome that is. How do we know the Holy Spirit didn’t create this move?? If your contention is that the Holy Spirit only reveals the truth to Rome, then Rome is no different than the gnostics.

Now let’s see what happened to those guys???

If the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to Catholics. Which group?? Catholic Senior or Catholic Junior??

Interesting topic, but please open another thread if you wish to discuss it. We’re trying very hard not to let this thread get derailed into a discussion about Catholicism vs. Protestantism.

Essentially, this thread is about how to choose a church if Catholicism (for whatever reason) is not an option. Yes, it’s hypothetical, but let’s please stay within that scenario. Thank you!