Calling on all Protestants on this forum!

[Ginger2]

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania …

**Catholic Church in America
Catholic Church in Canada
Catholic Church in Southern Africa
Catholic Church of Finland
Catholic Church of Latvia
Catholic Church in Tanzania

Roman Catholic Church in America
Roman Catholic Church in Canada
Roman Catholic Church in Southern Africa
Roman Catholic Church of Finland
Roman Catholic Church of Latvia
Roman Catholic Church in Tanzania

Polish Catholic Church of America…**

Please provide evidence for:

Communion is only symbolic; not salvific.

Sorry, I don’t know any Protestant who believe it is only symbolic

That baptism is only symbolic; not salvific.

Sorry, I don’t know any Protestant who believe it is only symbolic

Marian doctrine is a late innovation of the Roman Catholic Church.

All Protestants I know believe Mary was a Virgin. However, none of us believes our salvation rests on whether or not she had children after Jesus. We are free to believe it, as there is no clear Biblical evidence to suggest otherwise

That Apostolic Succession was not taught in the early Church.

I think the burden of proof lies with Catholics. So show us where any Apostle declared it so.

 

[alanjeddy]

In John 6 Jesus says unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of man you have no life in you. Jesus is not speaking metaphorically. Nowhere does He say this is a symbol of my body and blood. What happens to His audience is of extreme importance. They leave Him, they are scandalized! They murmur to each other, how can this man give us His flesh to eat? Does Jesus ever call them back to explain to them that He was only talking about a symbolic presence? It never happens because Jesus said what He meant and He meant what He said. Then for the third time Jesus says He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood will live forever and I will raise him up on the last day.

Oh yes there is one more important point. The Greek word to eat used in John 6 in the bread of life discourse is Torgo. It has only one meaning. To eat or gnaw on flesh.

 

[Benadam]

**

 

[PRmerger]

**Catholic Church in America
Catholic Church in Canada
Catholic Church in Southern Africa
Catholic Church of Finland
Catholic Church of Latvia
Catholic Church in Tanzania

Roman Catholic Church in America
Roman Catholic Church in Canada
Roman Catholic Church in Southern Africa
Roman Catholic Church of Finland
Roman Catholic Church of Latvia
Roman Catholic Church in Tanzania

Polish Catholic Church of America…**

Ginger, do all those churches submit to the authority of the Pope? If so, then they are all one church.

If they have their own doctrines, interpreting Scripture differently from the RCC, then they are different denominations and prove my point that Sola Scriptura makes no sense.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t believe this. Please back up your claim with proof. Name only 1% of these assumed 30,000 denominations.

No, no, no, I want to be charitable. Can you name even 1/4 of 1 %? That should be easy…

sigh Ok…here’s more to the list I gave earlier…

**(BTW 1/4 of 1% of 33,000 is 82, and I’ve given over 100 just in this post alone) **

Congregationalist Churches
English Independents (virtually extinct as a modern and distinct group)
Huguenots (virtually extinct as a modern and distinct group)
National Association of Congregational Christian Churches
United Congregational Church of Southern Africa
United Church of Christ
Alliance of Baptists
American Baptist Association
American Baptist Churches USA
Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
Association of Grace Baptist Churches
Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
Anabaptists
Amish
Beachy Amish
Nebraska Amish
Old Order Amish
Swartzendruber Amish
Apostolic Christian Church
Brethren
Main article: Brethren
Church of the United Brethren in Christ
Free Evangelical Churches
Plymouth Brethren
Exclusive Brethren
Indian Brethren
Kerala Brethren
Open Brethren
River Brethren
Brethren in Christ Church
Old Order River Brethren
United Zion Church
Schwarzenau Brethren
Brethren Reformed Church
Church of the Brethren
Conservative Grace Brethren Churches, International
Dunkard Brethren
Ephrata Cloister
Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches
Old German Baptist Brethren
Old Order German Baptist Brethren
The Brethren Church (Ashland Brethren)
Social Brethren
Hutterites
Bruderhof Communities
Mennonites
Alliance of Mennonite Evangelical Congregations
Chortitzer Mennonite Conference
Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (Holdeman Mennonites)
Conservative Mennonite Conference
Evangelical Mennonite Church
Evangelical Mennonite Conference

Evangelical Mennonite Mission Conference
Evangelical Missionary Church
Fellowship of Evangelical Bible Churches (formerly Evangelical Mennonite Brethren)
Mennonite Brethren Churches
Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
Japan Mennonite Brethren Conference
US Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
Mennonite Church Canada
General Conference Mennonite Church (merged)
Mennonite Church in the Netherlands
Mennonite Church USA
General Conference Mennonite Church (merged)
Missionary Church
Old Order Mennonites
Swiss Mennonite Conference

Methodists
African Methodist Episcopal Church
African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
Christian Methodist Episcopal Church (Dallas, TX)
Congregational Methodist Church
Evangelical Church (ECNA)
Evangelical Church of the Dominican Republic
Evangelical Methodist Church
First Congregational Methodist Church
Free Methodist Church (North America)
Free Wesleyan Church (Tonga)
Fundamental Methodist Conference, Inc.
Methodist Church in Ireland
Methodist Church in Singapore
Methodist Church of Fiji and Rotuma
Methodist Church of Great Britain
Methodist Church of Malaysia
Methodist Church of New Zealand
Methodist Church of Southern Africa
Presbyterian Church of Wales (also a Presbyterian church)
Primitive Methodist Church
United Methodist Church
Wesleyan Reform Union

Pietists and Holiness Churches
Bible Fellowship Church
Christian Baptist Church of God
Christ’s Sanctified Holy Church
Church of Christ (Holiness) U.S.A.
Church of God (Anderson)
Church of God (Guthrie, Oklahoma)
Church of God (Holiness)
Church of God (Restoration)
Churches of God General Conference (Winebrenner)
Church of the Nazarene
Evangelical Free Church of America
Harmony Society
Missionary Church
Salvation Army
United Christian Church
Source: here.

 

[Ginger2]

Ginger, do all those churches submit to the authority of the Pope? If so, then they are all one church.

If they have their own doctrines, interpreting Scripture differently from the RCC, then they are different denominations and prove my point that Sola Scriptura makes no sense.

To name one…
The Polish National Church does not adhere to the authority of the pope. Nor does it agree with all RC doctrines.

It is misleading, at the very least, to name one Lutheran church as 500 by listing the different countries it has congregations in. That is what I was trying to show.

To include every cult imaginable - even those that began long before Luther - as a Luther spin off is also deceiving. (Most cults can find their roots within the first couple centuries A.D.)

Ginger

 

[alanjeddy]

To name one…
The Polish National Church does not adhere to the authority of the pope. Nor does it agree with all RC doctrines.

It is misleading, at the very least, to name one Lutheran church as 500 by listing the different countries it has congregations in. That is what I was trying to show.

To include every cult imaginable - even those that began long before Luther - as a Luther spin off is also deceiving. (Most cults can find their roots within the first couple centuries A.D.)

Ginger

You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church and the powers of hell shall not prevail upon it. Look not on your sins but the faith of your church and know that I am with you always till the end of time.

There is only one church that can trace its roots to Peter.The primacy of Christ true church is given to Peter and through apostolic succession Jesus gives continuity to the church.

 

[O.S.Luke]

I’m sure Dennis would like to know that this thread has been revived. But he hasn’t been here in years. Where did he go?

 

[PRmerger]

To name one…
The Polish National Church does not adhere to the authority of the pope. Nor does it agree with all RC doctrines.

My point, exactly, Ginger! All those listed indeed are a different denomination than the RCC and thus legitimately were included in the list.

It is misleading, at the very least, to name one Lutheran church as 500 by listing the different countries it has congregations in. That is what I was trying to show.

It would be misleading if they all taught the same doctrines, all submitted to one authority, but they don’t.

Each and every denomination listed has read the Bible and come up with differing doctrines.

It speaks for itself. Sola Scriptura creates confusion and has resulted in over 40,000 different denominations, each claiming their interpretation of the Bible (or, their fallible pastor’s interpretation) is correct.

And I pretty certain that in each of those denominations listed there’s been at least one individual who read the Bible and decided that this particular pastor’s interpretation was wrong (after all, this pastor is fallible, so by definition will be mistaken at some point!) and started his own church.

 

[Ginger2]

Here we are years later repeating the same false claims that we disputed many years ago.

I think anyone interested should go back and read from the beginning of this thread. All the points that are going to be made at this point have already been discussed. To repeat ourselves over and over again is useless.

 

[PRmerger]

Here’s a (nonexhaustive) example of issues that have arisen simply because someone has read the Bible and decided that it doesn’t mean what his pastor said:

Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Homosexuality
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
Death/Soul Sleep
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed)
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
themselves)
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Predestination
(adapted from a post by ProdigalSon, with his permission)

 

[alanjeddy]

Here we are years later repeating the same false claims that we disputed many years ago.

I think anyone interested should go back and read from the beginning of this thread. All the points that are going to be made at this point have already been discussed. To repeat ourselves over and over again is useless.

Come on Ginger, is that the best you can do?

 

[PRmerger]

Here we are years later repeating the same false claims that we disputed many years ago.

I think anyone interested should go back and read from the beginning of this thread. All the points that are going to be made at this point have already been discussed. To repeat ourselves over and over again is useless.

That’s an interesting non-response, Ginger.

Regardless of how old this thread is, the truth bears repeating.

And, if you don’t care to address the evidence provided, perhaps another Protestant will. Certainly, there are many non-Catholic lurkers here who may be given pause by the jarring list of denominations and perhaps will re-examine their Sola Scriptura position.

 

[Ginger2]

I have already responded to these questions. Go back and read my responses.

The truth will not change no matter how many times you deny it.

 

[PRmerger]

I have already responded to these questions. Go back and read my responses.

The truth will not change no matter how many times you deny it.

Again, the posts are not only addressed to you, Ginger. Even if you don’t want to acknowledge the existence of at least 33,000 Christian denominations (and now up to 40,000 by my estimate), I believe that lurkers here who are searching and open to the truth will see the great fallacy of fallible men interpreting Scipture to their own destruction.

 

[alanjeddy]

I have already responded to these questions. Go back and read my responses.

The truth will not change no matter how many times you deny it.

At the heart of apologetics is defending one’s beliefs. You don’t hide behind previous posts. You respond to what has just been posted, It is obvious that you can not respond to what I posted about the genesis of Christs church and its continuity through apostolic succession.

Man I would also like to debate John 6 and the bread of life discourse with any protestant out there.

 

[Ginger2]

I have already defended my position. Repeating myself will not make you change your mind. What’s the point in sounded like a broken record as you do?

But to show I have already responded to these questions here is a sampling of a few posts:

The Op’s original questions:

Please provide evidence for:

Communion is only symbolic; not salvific.

That baptism is only symbolic; not salvific.

Marian doctrine is a late innovation of the Roman Catholic Church.

That Apostolic Succession was not taught in the early Church.

I came in late to this thread and responded:

Communion and Baptism are both spelled out in Scriptures. So that does not fit the criteria of beliefs not shared. I can’t help it if some people don’t fully understand. Catholics have the same problem with not understanding everything and often state erroneous beliefs that do not match Catholicism.

That said, I don’t believe Marian dogmas cannot be supported using 1st century sources. Since Protestants are not claiming anything extra about the Virgin Mary, I believe the burden of proof lies with Catholics.

Apostolic succession. Can you provide any evidence at all that Peter was ever even in Rome?

A follow-up was “His remains are beneath St Peters Cathederal in Rome. Was he brought there posthumously?”

I responded:

I do believe this tradition but does not have any facts to support it.

The next discourse I was involved in was this: “I don’t think the Protestant churches have any right to discern false teachings. Look at all the splintered protestant faiths, all 330,000 of them. Something is not working. Watch the Journey Home on EWTN 8:00 PM on Mondays. There’s no authorrity in your 300,000 interpretations of the truth. Something isn’t working.”

I responded:

This is funny.

The first split came from within the Catholic Church. Thus we have Orthodox and Roman. The odds of the RC splitting again were diminished by 50%.

The second split is also from the Catholic Church. Thus we have Lutherans. The odds of another split again were greatly diminished because those seeking the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob had more choices and didn’t necessarily need to form a new denomination.

Now all the splits are blamed on the Protestants, but think about it …

The odds of the Catholic Church splitting again are now minimal because it’s easier to leave and join another denomination.

BTW, it seems to me there was another split in the Catholic Church early on, but I don’t remember the results. Is anyone familiar with a second split before Luther?

In addition many heretic cults find their roots in the first two century yet you include these cults under the listing of Protestant splits. Not very honest if you ask me.

You also include other smaller lesser known splits from the RC under Protestant splits and multiply the numbers by including splits from them as well. Thus denying the many splits from the Catholic church and added them into Protestant numbers.

Ginger

 

[PRmerger]

I have already responded to these questions. Go back and read my responses.

The truth will not change no matter how many times you deny it.

And, really, Ginger, you didn’t. Your challenge about the existence of 33,000 Christian denominations was made only 2 pages ago, and since that time you’ve not really made a credible rebuttal.

Now, if you’re talking about the folly of following fallible pastors who will certainly make mistakes in their interpretation of Scripture, perhaps you have already responded.

But to speak to the existence of 33,000 denominations…not so much.

 

[Ginger2]

There is also a verse in Isaiah I believe which states, “Do not dispute with words, for that is useless”

I think it is time heed that advice.

 

[Ginger2]

and, really, ginger, you didn’t. Your challenge about the existence of 33,000 christian denominations was made only 2 pages ago, and since that time you’ve not really made a credible rebuttal.

Now, if you’re talking about the folly of following fallible pastors who will certainly make mistakes in their interpretation of scripture, perhaps you have already responded.

But to speak to the existence of 33,000 denominations…not so much.

see post # 371