S
St_Redemption
Guest
I too believe that the answer is yes
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O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
I would think invincible ignorance would play a role.
A
aragonjohn1
Guest
Yes, if the Atheist does not know of being a Christian
Yet the atheist does
God bless Y’all
B
Bradski
Guest
‘Doubt is uncomfortable but certainty is ridiculous’. Voltaire.Funny enough, some atheists say the same thing about deists and theists.
Unfortunately, some people will always believe that anyone who has different beliefs than theirs must be mentally ill
J
jkiernan56
Guest
James - you hit it right on the head in my opinion. After I proposed the question, I realized I asked the question backwards. The question is better asked the way you put it -“Can God be closer to an Atheist than to a Christian?” - that is if the standard by which you measure is LOVE. All human beings have the capacity to love whether they are Christian or not.
J
JRKH
Guest
I understand why you asked the question as you did - We always think in terms of God being constant and us as moving…So are we closer or further from God.
But it does seem more clear, in light of the scripture verses quoted, to ask it the other way.
That said…I think that there are two analogies that a person might employ here in discussing this matter…
- We’ve all had occasion to turn around and find someone standing near to us that we did not know was there…We are usually startled and even jump from surprise. In like manner one can be close to God and not know it.
- A person might, through observation and discussion develop strong ideas on matters of morality etc. and then later, either through reading or further discussion, discover that someone else had these same thoughts and perhaps even developed them further -
The person might read this and go AHA - that is what I’ve been thinking all along…
So a person can be very near to some “philosophy” or other without realizing it.
Our Catechism even sates that one who has not heard (and this includes “understood”). It states in Para 847
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
And what is God’s Will? That we Love…
So the Atheist in seeking Agape is seeking God without knowing it…
Peace
James
J
jkiernan56
Guest
Thank you James for your contribution. We are on the same page.
I understand why you asked the question as you did - We always think in terms of God being constant and us as moving…So are we closer or further from God.
But it does seem more clear, in light of the scripture verses quoted, to ask it the other way.
That said…I think that there are two analogies that a person might employ here in discussing this matter…
The same with God.
- We’ve all had occasion to turn around and find someone standing near to us that we did not know was there…We are usually startled and even jump from surprise. In like manner one can be close to God and not know it.
- A person might, through observation and discussion develop strong ideas on matters of morality etc. and then later, either through reading or further discussion, discover that someone else had these same thoughts and perhaps even developed them further -
The person might read this and go AHA - that is what I’ve been thinking all along…
So a person can be very near to some “philosophy” or other without realizing it.
Our Catechism even sates that one who has not heard (and this includes “understood”). It states in Para 847
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
And what is God’s Will? That we Love…
So the Atheist in seeking Agape is seeking God without knowing it…
Peace
James
Metaphysically speaking, God is the closest reality and the furthest reality from each person. It is God who is “thinking” and “willing” our existence. Imagine sitting on a tree branch but not seeing the tree trunk that supports the branch to be where it is. You and I and the universe itself are like tree branches supported by the palm of God’s hand (ie - thought and willed by God). Nothing can exist unless God is “thinking” and “willing” it to exist. God must be present for anything to exist - since it is God “giving” it existence. Otherwise it would not be. God is present whether you or I recognize it or not.
When it comes to the reality of LOVE, the presence of God is even more visible (ie - present) to us when real love is exhibited (regardless of the vehicle - Christian or non) - simply put - because GOD IS LOVE and all LOVE comes from God.
God is more visible (present) to an atheist when they act with genuine love than a Christian when they act in non-loving ways. Thus in that sense an atheist who is loving is “closer” to God in that moment than a Christian who is non-loving in my opinion.
"God is love. Whoever LOVES lives in God, and God in them.” 1 John 4:16
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Looking back on my life, I was baptized a Catholic, but fell away from the Church after grade school. Looking back now, I see my life as a religious journey. Always was I close to God. I went from Catholic to atheism and back to being Catholic. I feel God had it all planned to make be into a devout Catholic. Without the atheism phase, I would have remained lukewarm. My Catholic faith became ever so deep after my second conversion.
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murraymuzz
Guest
If it is meant in the strict sense of the title, then no, as a atheist will not spend their time trying to be closer to God, unlike a Christian, who makes it their life journey to be close with God.
But to put it another way you could pretty much say, is God closer with some people than others? Yes he seems to be.
But to put it another way you could pretty much say, is God closer with some people than others? Yes he seems to be.
J
jkiernan56
Guest
Could those “some people” be atheists? Can some atheists act more loving toward their neighbor than some Christians?
M
murraymuzz
Guest
Yes of course, but as I said, if you mean it in the strict sense of the title and the definitions of Atheist and Christian, then no. As an atheist isn’t concerned with being closer to God while a christian is and actively pursues this closeness.
But we can call ourselves whatever we like, if we don’t practice what we preach then it really doesn’t matter what we call ourselves.
J
JRKH
Guest
E
englishredrose
Guest
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
The atheist who dies an atheist has no chance at salvation. The Christian, even if he is more full of sin than an atheist, at least has a shot at reconciliation and redemption.
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16
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J_Peterson
Guest
Isn’t there the idea of the anonymous Christian (people who Christ works through with the person realizing)?
Nothing is impossible for God so I’d answer yes to the original question.
Nothing is impossible for God so I’d answer yes to the original question.
A
Agnostic_Batman
Guest
Yes, I believe, to some extent, an atheist can be closer to God than a Christian. This is in the same way that someone who ventures to the North Pole can get closer to Santa. An atheist, at least many times, may make or try to make the venture to the North Pole. Upon not being able to see Santa Claus, the atheist no long believes in Santa Clause. (This is not to say Santa isn’t there, perhaps he actually is in the South Pole or perhaps the atheist didn’t look hard enough, but at least he looked).
On the counter, a Christian many times may accept certain statements may they be from a pastor, elder, etc without question. I think truly blind faith, which I would define as faith in which one just believes without question is a terrible thing. I believe that it is important to test your faith and to confront it. I think through confrontation and challenging one’s faith that one can become closer to God.
So, in my opinion, a believer who confronts his faith and subsequently becomes a disbeliever is closer to God than a believer who does not.
On the counter, a Christian many times may accept certain statements may they be from a pastor, elder, etc without question. I think truly blind faith, which I would define as faith in which one just believes without question is a terrible thing. I believe that it is important to test your faith and to confront it. I think through confrontation and challenging one’s faith that one can become closer to God.
So, in my opinion, a believer who confronts his faith and subsequently becomes a disbeliever is closer to God than a believer who does not.
S
Sair
Guest
Technically, those who claim to be “theist” are agnostic as well - they don’t know there’s a god, they only believe it. By the same token, even those who identify as ‘strong’ atheists still believe there is no god - we don’t know, but to us, the evidence points that way.
I think anyone who could say, with absolute conviction, that there is a god, would be certifiable…
S
Sair
Guest
And yet God is supposed to be perfectly just.
Consider - a convinced atheist who spent her life helping others, contributing to charitable endeavours, doing her best to make others’ lives better and happier, would be sent to hell for lack of belief. But a psychotic serial killer who spent his life murdering, raping, torturing and generally making life miserable and horrifying for others, would only have to convert and repent on his deathbed and then could ultimately spend eternity in paradise, perhaps after a token period of ‘cleansing’ in purgatory, if the Church even endorses that particular article of faith these days.
This is God’s ‘justice’, apparently - so why would any sane person invest in faith in such a god?
D
DaveBj
Guest
So . . . if someone looks at a Chevrolet and says, with absolute conviction, that there is an automobile factory, would
C
CaptFun
Guest
This scripture - and Jesus’ about the Good Samaritan come to mind.
I won’t say a firm YES yet … but in favor of the … ***possibility ***might be these:
from Matthew 25:
Could there be a “good atheist” in the sheep line?
And these verses ***MIGHT *** just be a cautionary tale for those who’d claim Jesus as their Lord but bear no fruit and have no charity for their neighbors thinking they were saved by faith alone … and a hollow declaration that excused them from serving God or their neighbors – who Jesus here identifies SO closely with he teaches “you did it unto me!”
Atheism is a deadly sin that can cost one their salvation or chance at it. But in some, perhaps it is a venial sin … and they’d have believed but for circumstances. And when such a person listens to and obeys the promptings of the Holy Spirit and “does the works” Christ did – they can be more “Christian” than the Christian whose LIFE is atheistic while
praising Jesus " with their lips but their hearts are far from me."
More wisdom from Jesus’ “works matter” period include him questioning of the the High Priest, Scribes and Pharisees (the obvious “holy people” analogous to the Christians per this thread):
Matt 21:28
23 "What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He came to the first and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’
29 He said in reply, ‘I will not,’ but afterwards he changed his mind and went.
30 The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, **‘Yes, sir,’ but did not go.
**
31 Which of the two did his father’s will?"
They answered, “The first.” Jesus said to them,
"Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.
Prostitution is a mortal sin (and was a capital offense in Moses’ day) - but some of these were turning from their earlier “NO” to God and coming to Jesus (with works per Jesus example in the parable).
Serving in the Temple was a great honor … but the holy folks’ earlier YES to God was not sincere or did not result in "doing the Father’s will). These rejected the Messiah they should have recognized.
TRUE … each had sinned … but one repented.
Other aspect of this (suddenly the question is profound!) would be:
Both are saved, but the “atheist” now converted is “greater in the kingdom of heaven” than the barely saved Christian whose works were burned up in a 1 Corinthians 3:15 test of fire.
Both end up in the goat line - but the “Christian” who knew better, get worse punishment - while the “Atheist” was “Ignorant of his master’s will” - gets less, so is “closer to God?”
Luke 12:47 That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48 and the servant who was** ignorant of his master’s will **but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.
For now … it may be possible. But I don’t want to give too much comfort to any Atheists
who might be reading here. The “good news” is better. The bad news is that scripture has
a stern warning about those who’d shun the good news for the nothingness of atheism:
Psalm 14:1 … Fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is right.
Hmm. Deeds again. OK. Looks like both the Atheist and Christian have some “work” to do. But being “closer to God” is nice work if you can get it. (Get it?!)
I won’t say a firm YES yet … but in favor of the … ***possibility ***might be these:
from Matthew 25:
Could there be a “good atheist” in the sheep line?
Or Could their be people who THINK they are Christian in the goat line per:
It’s true that both the sheep and the goats call Him “Lord” - but perhaps the “good atheist” just found out about it - and is surprised that since he’s gotten his theology wrong, his good works still mattered. And that he’d been listening all along and bearing fruit through the Holy Spirit he intellectually had trouble believing existed.
And these verses ***MIGHT *** just be a cautionary tale for those who’d claim Jesus as their Lord but bear no fruit and have no charity for their neighbors thinking they were saved by faith alone … and a hollow declaration that excused them from serving God or their neighbors – who Jesus here identifies SO closely with he teaches “you did it unto me!”
Atheism is a deadly sin that can cost one their salvation or chance at it. But in some, perhaps it is a venial sin … and they’d have believed but for circumstances. And when such a person listens to and obeys the promptings of the Holy Spirit and “does the works” Christ did – they can be more “Christian” than the Christian whose LIFE is atheistic while
praising Jesus " with their lips but their hearts are far from me."
More wisdom from Jesus’ “works matter” period include him questioning of the the High Priest, Scribes and Pharisees (the obvious “holy people” analogous to the Christians per this thread):
Matt 21:28
23 "What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He came to the first and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’
29 He said in reply, ‘I will not,’ but afterwards he changed his mind and went.
30 The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, **‘Yes, sir,’ but did not go.
**
31 Which of the two did his father’s will?"
They answered, “The first.” Jesus said to them,
"Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.
Prostitution is a mortal sin (and was a capital offense in Moses’ day) - but some of these were turning from their earlier “NO” to God and coming to Jesus (with works per Jesus example in the parable).
Serving in the Temple was a great honor … but the holy folks’ earlier YES to God was not sincere or did not result in "doing the Father’s will). These rejected the Messiah they should have recognized.
TRUE … each had sinned … but one repented.
Other aspect of this (suddenly the question is profound!) would be:
Both are saved, but the “atheist” now converted is “greater in the kingdom of heaven” than the barely saved Christian whose works were burned up in a 1 Corinthians 3:15 test of fire.
Both end up in the goat line - but the “Christian” who knew better, get worse punishment - while the “Atheist” was “Ignorant of his master’s will” - gets less, so is “closer to God?”
Luke 12:47 That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48 and the servant who was** ignorant of his master’s will **but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.
For now … it may be possible. But I don’t want to give too much comfort to any Atheists
who might be reading here. The “good news” is better. The bad news is that scripture has
a stern warning about those who’d shun the good news for the nothingness of atheism:
Psalm 14:1 … Fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is right.
Hmm. Deeds again. OK. Looks like both the Atheist and Christian have some “work” to do. But being “closer to God” is nice work if you can get it. (Get it?!)
- Status