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Mrchatsworth
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What makes those “good”?
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Freddy
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I’m not sure that the question is required. Surely ‘avoiding pain’ is something we would all agree is beneficial (unless you needed to suffer some short term pain for long term gain, such as an operation). Does it even make sense to ask why?
Likewise the betterment of sentient creatures. We could always break down that point into further discussions about vegerarianism, hunting etc but to ensure that creatures don’t suffer unreasonably isn’t a matter that really needs to questioned. What we will allow them to suffer for our benefit is a separate issue.
And flourishing of humanity? Well, we want our children to grow in maturity to better face the world and to be educated in the arts and sciences as there are obvious benefits. But why stop at children?
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o_mlly
Guest
You do see the internal contradiction above which makes your claim incoherent?
And in this statement, you’ve descended into utter nonsense.
This post appears to be simply a deflection from the challenge I made that you prove your claim that the Catholic church changes its moral teaching, specifically on the use of contraception.
To help you out, I’ll re-post the exchange:
As they say, put up or shut up.Dan123:
All evidence? Examining the example you offer, show us where the Catholic church has changed its teaching on the use of contraceptives.
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Dan123
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o_mlly:
Dan123:
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o_mlly
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Here’s the difference between atheists and Catholics re-posted.
One may find as many moral systems as their are atheists: they appeal to their own authority which often is how they personally feel about things. Feelings are quite fickle.
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Freddy
Guest
You’re slipping between stating that the church itself generally holds to certain views and doesn’t change them and Catholics themselves. Which isn’t the same thing. Especially when the point being made was that Christians vary greatly in their moral outlook - not specifically Catholics. Although even as we can see on any given thread in this forum, Catholic views on moral questions such as divorce or contraception or sex outside marriage or homosexuality vary tremendously.Dan123:
Here’s the difference between atheists and Catholics re-posted.
One may find as many moral systems as their are atheists: they appeal to their own authority which often is how they personally feel about things. Feelings are quite fickle.
And if we read that someone has suggested that we should treat others as we ourselves would wish to be treated and we take that on board as a maxim by which we should live, are we doing that simply because we personally feel that it’s a great idea? I’m not sure of any other way to accept it. Other than actually being told that we have to.
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o_mlly
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You’re slipping between the proper understanding of nominal Catholics and faithful Catholics. Both are sinners. However, the former choose to call themselves what they, in fact, do not practice. The latter take their sins to sacramental confession.
Understood. This site is Catholic Answers. If our non-Catholic Christian friends wish to post, they are welcome. A number of forums exist specifically for that purpose.
If a Catholic holds beliefs that are contrary to the obligatory Church teaching then, when one refers to those Catholics, one ought to use the adjective “nominal”, i.e., “catholic” in name only.
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Mrchatsworth
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If avoiding pain is the definition of good then is pleasure also the definition of good? What if the OP had said”holy” instead?
It appears that good is just what any individual believes. There needs to be common foundations of what good is. And why anyone should “do” it.
It appears that good is just what any individual believes. There needs to be common foundations of what good is. And why anyone should “do” it.
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Abrosz
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Just another example of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy! How boring!
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o_mlly
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Obviously, you do not understand the fallacy to which you refer.
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Dan123
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And yet…o_mlly:
One may find as many moral systems as their are atheists: they appeal to their own authority which often is how they personally feel about things. Feelings are quite fickle.
Seems like if someone in the US tells me they’re Catholic, smart money would say they believe people should be able to use birth control. Fickle indeed.
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Dan123
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What turns a faithful Catholic into a nominal one, or vice versa? Is it their feelings on the matter? Are they fickle?
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Montrose
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There are only two types of Catholics - those in a state of grace and those in a state of mortal sin.
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o_mlly
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No one argues that the nominal Catholics may outnumber faithful Catholics but that’s not the point.
Unlike many Protestant religions that caved to the people in the pews on the matter of contraception, the Catholic church did not. The Catholic church is not a democracy, Deo Gratias.
We may very need to become smaller in number until the secular humanists begin to realize the evils of abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc. We will still have the Truth and be ready to share it and embrace them once again.
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o_mlly
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What turns a faithful spouse into an unfaithful one? Love of pleasure, fear of suffering, selfishness in general.
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Dan123
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The goalposts have been moved from ‘all non-atheists’ to ‘christians’ to ‘catholics’ to ‘faithful Catholics’. So then do all faithful Catholics have the same opinion on every article of morality?
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Dan123
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And vice versa?Dan123:
What turns a faithful spouse into an unfaithful one? Love of pleasure, fear of suffering, selfishness in general.
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Montrose
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All “faithful” Catholics believe all the teachings of the Church in matters of faith and morals.
Of course, that does not mean they might not slip from time to time and commit a mortal sin. If they sincerely repent and go to Confession they will be reconciled to God and the Church.
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o_mlly
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Dan123
Guest
Just so we’re on the same page can you clarify the addition of ‘defined’?
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