Can atheists do "good?"

[o_mlly]

Just so we’re on the same page can you clarify the addition of ‘defined’?

Sure. A good summary is in Part III of the Catechism:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3.htm

The table of contents will direct one to specific areas.

PART THREE - LIFE IN CHRIST

SECTION ONE: MAN’S VOCATION: LIFE IN THE SPIRIT

CHAPTER ONE: THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON

ARTICLE 1: MAN: THE IMAGE OF GOD

         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 2: OUR VOCATION TO BEATITUDE

      I. The Beatitudes
     II. The Desire for Happiness
    III. Christian Beatitude
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 3: MAN'S FREEDOM

      I. Freedom and Responsibility
     II. Human Freedom in the Economy of Salvation
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 4: THE MORALITY OF HUMAN ACTS

      I. The Sources of Morality
     II. Good Acts and Evil Acts
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 5: THE MORALITY OF THE PASSIONS

      I. Passions
     II. Passions and Moral Life
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 6: MORAL CONSCIENCE

      I. The Judgement of Conscience
     II. The Formation of Conscience
    III. To Choose in Accord with Conscience
     IV. Erroneous Judgement
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 7: THE VIRTUES

      I. The Human Virtues
     II. The Theological Virtues
    III. The Gifts and Fruits of the Holy Spirit
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 8: SIN

      I. Mercy and Sin
     II. The Definition of Sin
    III. The Different Kinds of Sins
     IV. The Gravity of Sin: Mortal and Venial Sin
      V. The Proliferation of Sin
         IN BRIEF

CHAPTER TWO: THE HUMAN COMMUNITY

ARTICLE 1: THE PERSON AND SOCIETY

      I. The Communal Character of the Human Vocation
     II. Conversion and Society
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 2: PARTICIPATION IN SOCIAL LIFE

      I. Authority
     II. The Common Good
    III. Responsibility and Participation
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 3: SOCIAL JUSTICE

      I. Respect for the Human Person
     II. Equality and Differences among Men
    III. Human Solidarity
         IN BRIEF

CHAPTER THREE: GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE

ARTICLE 1: THE MORAL LAW

      I. The Natural Moral Law
     II. The Old Law
    III. The New Law or the Law of the Gospel
         IN BRIEF

(continued)

 

[o_mlly]

ARTICLE 2: GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

      I. Justification
     II. Grace
    III. Merit
     IV. Christian Holiness
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 3: THE CHURCH, MOTHER AND TEACHER

      I. Moral Life and the Magisterium of the Church
     II. The Precepts of the Church
    III. Moral Life and Missionary Witness
         IN BRIEF

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS CHART

SECTION TWO: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

         IN BRIEF

CHAPTER ONE: “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOU GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART,
AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND”

ARTICLE 1: THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

      I. "You Shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve"
     II. "Him Only Shall You Serve"
    III. "You Shall Have No Other Gods before Me"
     IV. "You Shall Not Make for Yourself a Graven Image"
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 2: THE SECOND COMMANDMENT

      I. The Name of the Lord Is Holy
     II. Taking the Name of the Lord in Vain
    III. The Christian Name
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 3: THE THIRD COMMANDMENT

      I. The Sabbath Day
     II. The Lord's Day
         IN BRIEF

CHAPTER TWO: “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”

ARTICLE 4: THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT

      I. The Family in God's Plan
     II. The Family and Society
    III. The Duties of Family and the Kingdom
     IV. The Family and the Kingdom
      V. The Authorities in Civil Society
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 5: THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT

      I. Respect for Human Life
     II. Respect for the Dignity of Persons
    III. Safeguarding Peace
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 6: THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT

      I. "Male and Female He Created Them . . ."
     II. The Vocation to Chastity
    III. The Love of Husband and Wife
     IV. Offenses against the Dignity of Marriage
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 7: THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT

      I. The Universal Destination and the Private Ownership of Goods
     II. Respect for Persons and Their Goods
    III. The Social Doctrine of the Church
     IV. Economic Activity and Social Justice
      V. Justice and Solidarity among Nations
     VI. Love for the Poor
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 8: THE EIGHTH COMMANDMENT

      I. Living in the Truth
     II. To Bear Witness to the Truth
    III. Offenses against Truth
     IV. Respect for the Truth
      V. The Use of the Social Communications Media
     VI. Truth, Beauty, and Sacred Art
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 9: THE NINTH COMMANDMENT

      I. Purification of the Heart
     II. The Battle for Purity
         IN BRIEF

ARTICLE 10: THE TENTH COMMANDMENT

      I. The Disorder of Covetous Desires
     II. The Desires of the Spirit
    III. Poverty of Heart
     IV. "I Want to See God"
         IN BRIEF

 

[Dan123]

Dan123:

Just so we’re on the same page can you clarify the addition of ‘defined’?

Sure. A good summary is in Part III of the Catechism

I guess I meant the meaning behind it, not what the specific moral claims are. What is an undefined morality.

 

[o_mlly]

I guess I meant the meaning behind it, not what the specific moral claims are. What is an undefined morality.

A human act that the Church has not defined as immoral.

 

[Dan123]

A human act that the Church has not defined as immoral.

Gotcha. So could such an act still be immoral and hasn’t yet been defined as such, or is it moral until such time that it’s defined as immoral?

 

[o_mlly]

Gotcha. So could such an act still be immoral and hasn’t yet been defined as such, or is it moral until such time that it’s defined as immoral?

Human acts can be immoral in themselves, in the intention of the actor, or in the circumstances of the act. In order for a human act to be moral, it must be good in all three.

 

[Dan123]

So can there be an act that the intention is good, the circumstances are good, but the act is an undefined immoral act? Even if it’s a defined immoral act I thought Catholic teaching was the person still had to be aware of that fact as well, right?

Getting back to my earlier point, I argued that Christians like any other group have a diverse set of opinions, often if not frequently going against church teaching using their own thinking on the matter. You pointed out that the Catholic Church is consistent in their teaching, and I clarified I was talking about people, in that case Catholics, who just as an example in the west frequently support the use of birth control and even use it themselves. You clarified you were talking about faithful Catholics which you mentioned may be a minority in the Church. So accepting everything you said we have a group who does not apply their own thinking to morality but follows Church teaching, and viewing any violation of that teaching as a sin in need of forgiveness. So that to me boils down to one question, why Catholicism and not any other religion? Why not be strictly adherent to another faith? And try not to use any “thinking” in your answer since we know human thinking is as you suggested subject to frequent change.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

You’re slipping between stating that the church itself generally holds to certain views and doesn’t change them and Catholics themselves.

You’re slipping between the proper understanding of nominal Catholics and faithful Catholics. Both are sinners. However, the former choose to call themselves what they, in fact, do not practice. The latter take their sins to sacramental confession.

I’m going to put the goalposts back where they were.

The point that was made is that there is a great variety of opinion on moral matters between Christians (moreso I’d think then between atheists). Not a variety of opinion by the Catholic church. And not a variety of opinion between Catholics. Nominal or otherwise. But between Christians.

Now unless you can argue that anyone who identifies as a Christian is not a Christian unless they adhere exactly to what the Catholic church specifically teaches then we have a vast array of moral opinions on all matters from one end of the spectrum to the other.

It seems that you think that atheists just flap around looking for the moral position du jour (if it feels good…) and don’t have a moral leg to stand on hence their disagreement with the Catholic church. But you also need to include all Christians, including all Catholics who don’t exactly agree with all matters that the church teaches (a very large proportion) as well.

That was the point being made.

 

[Freddy]

If avoiding pain is the definition of good then is pleasure also the definition of good? What if the OP had said”holy” instead?
It appears that good is just what any individual believes. There needs to be common foundations of what good is. And why anyone should “do” it.

Avoiding pain is not the definition of good. It can simply be described as good. There is no all-encompassing definition of the word except to say ‘that which isn’t bad’. Something of a tautology but unless you list everything that can be classed as good (and discuss it if necessary to see if it can be included) then what else would you like to suggest?

And of course, what is good for one person might be bad for another. Is this something new that’s just been pointed out?

 

[Mrchatsworth]

The op asked if atheists can do good. If good is just subjective and personal to each person then the answer is of course yes. If good means choosing that which our Creator deems our purpose then an atheist can accidentally or coincidentally choose to do good.

 

[Freddy]

If good means choosing that which our Creator deems our purpose then an atheist can accidentally or coincidentally choose to do good.

As I get a lot of conflicting opinions from a variety of Christians as to what is acceptable to God then I’m afraid I have to put those opinions down to subjective and personal viewpoints as well.

 

[Mrchatsworth]

Ok then the entire subject is subjective and that’s your answer. Atheists are capable of doing what they think is good.

 

[Dan_Defender]

I have a question: how is an atheist posting on CAF (basically sowing doubt and spreading confusion among the faithful) doing good? where is the ‘good’ in that?

 

[Freddy]

I have a question: how is an atheist posting on CAF (basically sowing doubt and spreading confusion among the faithful) doing good? where is the ‘good’ in that?

Do you have any doubt after reading anything an atheist has written? Are you confused about something? Bring it to the table and we can discuss it.

I can’t speak for any other atheists on the forum but I have seen zero evidence that any of them have any desire whatsoever to change anyone’s mind about personal beliefs.

I see plenty of honest disagreement. Mostly between Catholics. Are the Catholics who hold different ideas to you trying to sow doubt and cause confusion?

 

[JohnStrachan]

I am reminded of an atheist friend of mine who constantly asks me questions about good, morality and heaven. For example, he asks if its possible for him to get into heaven even if he didn’t believe during his lifetime. I’ve explained baptism by desire and God not being bound by the sacraments. But it seems a bit odd to me that someone would be concerned about an afterlife when they don’t believe in the present life.

Which leads me to the question of atheists doing good, why does it matter? Going good by God’s standard is all that matters. If they don’t believe in God, goodness becomes subjective and irrelevant.

 

[Freddy]

Going good by God’s standard is all that matters.

If you know what God’s standards are then we have a go-to guy for all moral problems.

What’s He say about hunting for sport? And factory farming? Any idea what He might say about coal v renewable energy? My elderly mother-in-law is seriously ill at the moment and has indicated she doesn’t want to be resucitated if she has another heart attack. What does God recommend?

 

[JohnStrachan]

If you know what God’s standards are then we have a go-to guy for all moral problems.

I’m not your go to guy. That’s a bit ridiculous. I’m a mere mortal. If you want to know what God allows, ask God. You can find it in the 10 Commandments, Jesus teaching on the Sermon on the Mount, His parables, and His example of sacrifice.

 

[Dan123]

If good is just subjective and personal to each person then the answer is of course yes. If good means choosing that which our Creator deems our purpose then an atheist can accidentally or coincidentally choose to do good.

When people use the word ‘good’ in casual conversation, what would you put forth as a good conversation. Like “That was a really good hamburger”, or “he’s a good listener”, or “good dog!”. What do people mean when they say something is ‘good’, when they aren’t on a religious forum.

I have a question: how is an atheist posting on CAF (basically sowing doubt and spreading confusion among the faithful) doing good? where is the ‘good’ in that?

I joined because a search on an evolutionary topic led me here and I saw many purported Catholics spreading confusion among the faithful about evolution. I don’t believe they were doing so intentionally, I’m sure they were misled by whatever sources they had. I don’t care one bit if someone doesn’t accept evolution as the explanation for the origins of man, but that doesn’t entitle one to their own facts such as what evolution is.

Is there ‘good’ in trying to correct misconceptions? What about in spreading them?

If you want to know what God allows, ask God.

There’s billions of non-catholics and non-christians who’ve done just that and all seem to have different and often mutually exclusive answers. Realize that’s how this looks to someone from the outside. Billions telling us God is beyond understanding, but to come through their doors so they can explain him to us.

 

[JohnStrachan]

Billions telling us God is beyond understanding

I don’t believe God is beyond understanding. God is complex but His teaching is surprisingly simple - they are summed up in the two great commandments.

I don’t really know what you are getting at though. You say that billions of people have asked God for what he allows. I didn’t actually mean that you pick up a phone or pray real hard to find out what God allows. Most of the leg work has already taken place. It’s found in scripture, the teaching and life if Jesus and the teaching of the church. There is room for private revelation, though I’m not sure how to quantify that.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

If you know what God’s standards are then we have a go-to guy for all moral problems.

I’m not your go to guy. That’s a bit ridiculous. I’m a mere mortal. If you want to know what God allows, ask God. You can find it in the 10 Commandments, Jesus teaching on the Sermon on the Mount, His parables, and His example of sacrifice.

Some of the commandments are universal. I don’t need God to tell me not to murder and steal. Moses was somewhat late to the party when issuing those edicts. Some I think anyone should question: Should a child honour an abusive father? Should a Hindu not be allowed to worship his gods? Should medical staff refuse to work on tbe sabbath?

And the sermon on the mount? If there ever was a universal moral standard nominated by very many people over the ages - some well before Jesus told us it was a good idea, then that’s it. Again, almost without exception a universally accepted moral position.

But that’s the easy stuff. One doesn’t need a Christian God to understand those moral positions or to agree to them. Or to live by them. But what of the everyday problems we have. Should I stop hunting? Should I only eat free range? How much time should I spend on charity work as opposed to.time with my family? Should we let my MIL die peacefully if that’s her request?

I have no idea how you’ll know but what are God’s standards on those matters? I need to know to do good.