Can God defy logic or resolve paradox?

[thinkandmull]

Adult knowledge (apart from theology) is half true, half false. Reason that comes about around seven says for example that the water in a glass has the same volume if you put it in another glass. That is HUMAN reason. But it is not true in the whole for reasons we can’t understand. Take a ball: break it in half. Then break one of those pieces in half, and so on. Line up the pieces from the biggest to the smallest. Put your finger to the smallest side. What is there? Well, it actually must go on to infinity. So a finite thing is actually infinite? The same is with a circle’s circumference. Pie goes on forever. Even points on a segment are infinite. Two mutually exclusive things (finity and infinity) merge together. So our minds are imperfectly mathematical. The reasoning powers only go so far till we find a cliché. Without theology we would live life without a rock. This argues for the truth of revelation

 

[Bahman]

I’m not sure. The concept exists, but it cannot exist in actuality if there isn’t at least two objects in existence.

Concept is universal and abstract. This means that they do exist independent of any mind. Of course we need a mind to experience and process concepts.

 

[Bahman]

Again I ask you to PROVE that 1+1=2 in a place that is not our universe.

Any concept is universal and abstract. You can attach it to any thing such as a pair of apples, a pair of balls etc. Now apply this concept to objects in another universe. Again a pair apples is the result of two separate apple etc. The universality implements that a concept is valid everywhere and abstraction allows you to use a concept to attach it to everything.

 

[Bahman]

Two quotes from Augustine ( I do love to quote better minds than mine )

Then why he has five ways of proving God?

 

[Bahman]

Bah man in post #18 you agree that God is logic. You have repeatedly said God is illogical… WTH.

When I say that I agree that God exist it means that I agree with your definition God who you believe. It doesn’t essentially mean that I believe in God.

 

[Bahman]

Perhaps we differ on definitions.

Paradox: two statements to be merely in apparent contradiction but on closer examination are seen to be compatible.
Mystery: One or more statements that cannot be proven true or false by experience or reason.

How God exists in time and outside time is beyond all human experience. Being of faith, I accept the proposition as true and seek to find a congruent rationale that is disputable but not disprovable.

I like your definition: “a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.” What it is your opinion about the paradox?

 

[LethalMouse]

When I say that I agree that God exist it means that I agree with your definition God who you believe. It doesn’t essentially mean that I believe in God.

How do you not believe in God when you said YOU speak to God and Satan?!?!?!?!?!?!? And per Bahman:

I do strongly believe in spiritual word. It is just too huge. It is not simply Heaven and Hell. I just cannot understand death. They don’t tell me.

I am just told who they are when I ask. Believe it or not Satan and God are good friend of each other!

And:

Satan can simply rule me. I have experience that my inner thoughts were interrupted by him.

etc…etc…

You have too many stories of what Bahman is about, no one can follow which Bahman they are talking to. Atheist Bahman? Bahman that talks to God? Spiritual Bahman?

The big factor here is that we could all have a debate with just Bahman post. I could take quotes of just your posts and form two opposing arguments on just about every topic, but you don’t see it no matter how many people show you it. If you are cornered you just point to your “wherever I may go” but you keep going nowhere but in a big circle :banghead:

 

[Aloysium]

Yes, which is why it doesn’t make sense that you contradicted laocmo when s/he said it was impossible to kill God since God is a spiritual being.

I will elaborate. We can “kill” God within us, permanently destroy the relationship with Him from our end, if you believe in hell that is. Just a nuance, that I agree was beside the point Iacomo tried to make, but worthy of consideration, as far as I am concerned. Clearly God, being the eternal, unchanging, limitless Source of all life and all existence, He cannot be destroyed. That said, in Jesus Christ, God became one of us, fully human and fully God. Emptying Himself to become one of His creatures, He gave Himself to us, knowing what we would do, that with His sacrifice, taking upon Himself our sins and death that is their consequences, and His resurrection, we would be saved. With this revelation of Life eternal, and of God’s infinite love for us, there can no more fear. God is Love and we, created from that spirit are destined to join Him in eternal communion. But, the will that can choose to give itself completely to the Father, as does the Son eternally, may choose to do otherwise. In the Garden and every time we sin grievously we mortally wound the loving connection we have with our Creator. In the end, like Judas, we destroy our true self, who is Christ-like. I didn’t so much contradict Iacomo, but provided a different take on the matter, and not wishing to derail this thread, the apparent paradox who is Jesus Christ.

 

[seagal]

Then why he has five ways of proving God?

He has 5 ways of proving God’s existence. That’s not the same as saying he understands the nature of God. He recognizes (as all humans do, whether they acknowledge it or not) that there is a higher transcendent being but he realizes rightly that we can never fully grasp the nature of that being.

 

[laocmo]

What do you base the assertion on that God could not kill himself if he so chose? It would go against my perception of His nature. Like any human, my perception is faulty. What exactly would prevent I Am from ceasing to exist if he so chose?.

Why God could not cause himself to cease to exist is explained by his attributes:

Immutability: This simply means that God never changes. To cause himself to not exist would certainly be a change, and God never changes.

Eternal: God always has been, and will forever be. If He were not eternal, like if someday he caused himself to not exist, everything would cease to exist. God’s promise of eternal life for those who follow Jesus would have little value, it would be a lie.

Omnipresence: God is and will be always and everywhere present. If this is true, he could not cause himself to cease to exist.

 

[Bahman]

How do you not believe in God when you said YOU speak to God and Satan?!?!?!?!?!?!? And per Bahman:

I have to justify my feeling and understanding about God. I am very skeptic so God can at least should be able to resolve my paradox, if I am not satisfied I ask for some miracles and even when that is not enough I ask him to create a universe. For now I just put my full trust on them until when I die. Spiritual world is very complex so you have to be very careful.

And:

etc…etc…

You have too many stories of what Bahman is about, no one can follow which Bahman they are talking to. Atheist Bahman? Bahman that talks to God? Spiritual Bahman?

Think of Bahman who changes constantly until he find a correct system of thought. Why are’t you skeptical that much. Let me give you an example. Consider Genesis 1:1 which is about creation of earth and heaven. We know very well that earth was formed not created. Do you really need to rest of the book? Of course not since one flaw is enough to accept the fact that the book is not words of God.

The big factor here is that we could all have a debate with just Bahman post. I could take quotes of just your posts and form two opposing arguments on just about every topic, but you don’t see it no matter how many people show you it. If you are cornered you just point to your “wherever I may go” but you keep going nowhere but in a big circle :banghead:

You can accept your system of though although it has flaws or keep searching the truth as I do.

 

[davidv]

I have to justify my feeling and understanding about God. I am very skeptic so God can at least should be able to resolve my paradox, if I am not satisfied I ask for some miracles and even when that is not enough I ask him to create a universe. For now I just put my full trust on them until when I die. Spiritual world is very complex so you have to be very careful.

Matt 4:7:

Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Think of Bahman who changes constantly until he find a correct system of thought. Why are’t you skeptical that much. Let me give you an example. Consider Genesis 1:1 which is about creation of earth and heaven. We know very well that earth was formed not created. Do you really need to rest of the book?

You do not know this.

Of course not since one flaw is enough to accept the fact that the book is not words of God.

How do you know?

You can accept your system of though although it has flaws or keep searching the truth as I do.

The problem you are facing is that your are searching for the wrong thing. A “system of thought” is not the answer.

 

[LethalMouse]

I have to justify my feeling and understanding about God. I am very skeptic so God can at least should be able to resolve my paradox, if I am not satisfied I ask for some miracles and even when that is not enough I ask him to create a universe. For now I just put my full trust on them until when I die. Spiritual world is very complex so you have to be very careful.

This does not address that you stated you have two way communication with Him and Satan and that they tell you things contrary to what has been told to everyone else.

If you are skeptical of these interactions than you question your sanity. If so then you have to question if you logic is not accurate as you disagree with the rest of humanity

If you are skeptical of the spirits intentions then every preexisting evidence suggests that they are evil and serve to confound you and draw you away from the true faith.

If they are real then you have your answer…

 

[LethalMouse]

Think of Bahman who changes constantly until he find a correct system of thought. Why are’t you skeptical that much. Let me give you an example. Consider Genesis 1:1 which is about creation of earth and heaven. We know very well that earth was formed not created. Do you really need to rest of the book? Of course not since one flaw is enough to accept the fact that the book is not words of God.

Well here we all know you do not like a God outside of time… but let’s assume for arguements sake God exists outside of time and created the universe. Then Genesis would be literal from God’s perspective but figurative from ours. To God these thing happened in the blink of an eye…as has been told to you before, if you lived in a box and all sides were white, you would say the outside is white… but the outside might be black

 

[LethalMouse]

You can accept your system of though although it has flaws or keep searching the truth as I do.

You asked earlier why I am not skeptical, yousay I accept a system of thought but you do not know my journey. I have been beyond skeptical and dabbled well outside Catholicism. I have studied sciences and religions. I have formed my own system of purpose and function “outside of God” I have doubted spiritual experiences and dismissed them as possible mental moments.

The difference between me and you is my spiritual experiences only functioned in a way to not conflict with that which has been shown before.

During my time away from God I developed the same ideas as Him even where I was not taught of His ways. My issues with the faith were things I did not understand to be untrue and not actually of the faith.

In studying science I only understood God more and more rather than fibd myself more confused. As a scientific atheist I was “my own god” in a sense and turns out that I found the same thought process God seems to have in the role… He makes perfect sense to me. Like becoming a parent and finding out your parents were right, there is only one way God could be and make sense, and that is the same version of God that ofteb referenced as the Abrahamic God… He is simply logical. And in that, is the very reason that you continually seek Him out despite all your “paradoxs”

 

[Bahman]

You do not know this.

What do you mean?

How do you know?

Words of God cannot be wrong because he is omniscient.

The problem you are facing is that your are searching for the wrong thing. A “system of thought” is not the answer.

Oppositely I have very good progress.

 

[thinkandmull]

Bahman, proofs for God are philosophical proofs. If you believe that the world has always existed, is just there, and science is all that is real, there is really nothing we can present to you that will work

 

[davidv]

What do you mean?

Exactly what I wrote. What is unclear?

Words of God cannot be wrong because he is omniscient.

What does this mean?

Oppositely I have very good progress.

Not according to your posting history.

 

[Bahman]

This does not address that you stated you have two way communication with Him and Satan and that they tell you things contrary to what has been told to everyone else.

They have not told me anything et all. That is a good approach about somebody who search the truth.

If you are skeptical of these interactions than you question your sanity. If so then you have to question if you logic is not accurate as you disagree with the rest of humanity

I would be happy to see someone find an error in my arguments.

If you are skeptical of the spirits intentions then every preexisting evidence suggests that they are evil and serve to confound you and draw you away from the true faith.

That applies to any system of thought. How could you be sure that Jesus was not a simple man misguided with Satan? I have no faith but searching the truth and I also check my knowledge constantly. That is a must for anyone who is sincere with herself/himself. What is your answer to the paradox anyway?

If they are real then you have your answer…

I don’t understand you.

 

[thinkandmull]

There comes a point in ones life when they realize that Christianity makes sense. There is no way to prove ancient documents are accurate. The victors write the histories. Often Christians make to much of history, thinking everything written down is truth, even about supernatural claims. Of course Homer mentions activities of the gods, and maybe they were angels, or maybe Homer made them up. There is no way to know. But people have been trying to find contradictions in the Bible for centuries. There aren’t any