Can Jesus believers do any type of excersices like Tai Chi Chinese exercise

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Thank you. I appreciate it. So you learned in China. Was your teacher inspiring? Seemed to have some good Ji flowing? If the stuff did exist, I would expect a teacher to be pretty well balanced or something.

How did the practice make you feel?

Are you very proficient with Chinese? I know Chinese college students and I just found out about Mango. It is an on-line language tutorial. You can learn the basics of 50 languages for free if you go thorough you public library website.

I read some of that article by Bishop Julian Porteous. I think he mischaracterizes a few things. He says, "One of the paths to having an open mind is to be able to move beyond a reliance on the difference between good and evil. In other words, a person has to suspend moral thinking. The reason for this view is found in the Taoist philosophy of the yin and yang. Harmony and stillness are found when the yin and yang are in balance. Thus there is a requirement to move beyond the use of moral facilities and enter a new realm of free floating openness.

“Such a position of radical openness is extremely dangerous. We have abandoned those faculties given to us to direct and protect our lives: our reason, our emotions and our will. The normal use of these faculties assists us in making fully human decisions, and enabling us to be responsible for our actions. Abandoning these faculties in search of a deeper spiritual existence opens the person to all sorts of unknown forces. Our defences are down. It can lead to exposure to demonic powers.”

When he talks about suspending moral thinking I am not sure that Chinese or Indian religions usually mean as an ongoing lifestyle where anything goes, no morality. It has been my impression that the stillness is temporary as in stillness of the hart in moments of quiet. And opennes is not one of vulnerability but clarity. Have you ever seen this cartoon?

http://innerbreathing.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/581347_235029536625342_406818211_n.jpg

The open mind of the dog is simply without all the stuff, our inner monologue and distractions. I know St John the Cross talks about our rational mind, thoughts and images as being the things most vulnerable to demonic attack. And so he recommends letting it all rest.

Our defense against demonic powers is not so much our rational faculties as in our faith in Christ. I am not trying to convince you…just sharing some thoughts. It is as if this bishop is saying we should never strive to be quiet, never rest with inner silence. Yet every night we have no choice but to let go completely in sleep. Are we vulnerable then also? And yet most people who are coping with demonic attacks struggle with what they are thinking. Their reason, emotions, and will are the very things that are attacked. It seems to me if they also could rest the verbal thoughts they might find some peace.🤷
 
Another thought sort of related to all this maybe deals with sensitivity. I sometimes wonder if some forms of mental illness involve greater sensitivity to all that is around us, the good and the evil. Normal people, perhaps have a stronger ego boundry or psychic barrier and do not perceive all that is there all the time and so are not bothered by it and think others who do are “crazy”. Some exercises like kundalini yoga and drugs maybe increase that sensitivity without edequate moral preparation or more importantly, that relationship with Christ who protects like a good shepherd.

So maybe there is ji that some pople can naturaly or through practice develope a sensitivity for, an impersonal force of nature (I do not know. I am insensitive to it if it is there.) But when someone with mental illness tells me about hearing voices I believe they are hearing something real and usually not good.

But I do think the Lord calls us to be more sensitive. Silence and self examine work toward that. So does prayer. That is why the little dog in the cartoon is probably in bettter spiritual condition than the guy. Atheists have no clue about what it is like to hear God’s silent voice, to be led by the Spirit. In fact most of us are so poor at it that we need others to help us, spiritual direction, discernment involving others, etc.
 
*Thank you. I appreciate it. So you learned in China. Was your teacher inspiring? Seemed to have some good Ji flowing? If the stuff did exist, I would expect a teacher to be pretty well balanced or something. *

I had previously done taiji, starting back in 1993. I had lots of opportunities to learn with different teachers, both well-known and unknown. In the early 2000s, I had begun studying with one teacher, then seminars with others. This teacher, when he found out that I had left the Faith, actually encouraged me to return to my faith in Jesus, so even at this point, God was using everything available to call me back.

When I got to China, I found and had one teacher for taijiquan for most of my time there. His background was as a taiji player and san shou (the Chinese version of full-contact fighting) fighter. Without getting into details, I would say that my teacher’s martial arts abilities were really inspiring, the rest of him wasn’t. I had some other teachers, but these were people that I would learn one or two things from, etc. He was my main teacher at the time. I learned lots of things and refined a lot of things I’d already studied.

*How did the practice make you feel? *

Practice had its days when it made me feel refreshed, etc. However, I would say that in large part, most of this caused me to really spend time looking inward instead of looking at how I served others. I wouldn’t say that this means that I only consider outside apostolic ministry as a way to serve others–even contemplatives think about their vocation in terms of how it serves the Church and not so much how it serves them personally.

Are you very proficient with Chinese? I know Chinese college students and I just found out about Mango. It is an on-line language tutorial. You can learn the basics of 50 languages for free if you go thorough you public library website.

My Chinese is okay at this point. I still use it quite a bit, but there’s a big difference between total immersion and having occasions in the US to use it. I have done freelance work as an interpreter here and have done other work professionally which involves China and Chinese language, though it isn’t what I do now. When I got sick, everything changed.

When he talks about suspending moral thinking I am not sure that Chinese or Indian religions usually mean as an ongoing lifestyle where anything goes, no morality. It has been my impression that the stillness is temporary as in stillness of the hart in moments of quiet. And openness is not one of vulnerability but clarity.

I think morality exists in Chinese religion (let’s say Daoism), but it is markedly different from Catholic morality on a lot of fronts, especially with regard to sexuality. I’d say that the Christian view on sexuality is opposed by a lot of other religions either in part or totality because we get the fullness of what it is supposed to be in the Catholic faith. I think the teachings from the Theology of the Body are important, especially now when there is so much confusion about sex, because it puts sexuality in a healthy, realistic context. People can see the reasons for why we believe certain things about it.

Also, I really like the Bishop’s point that “openness is not one of vulnerability but clarity”. When I have made myself open to the Gospel in my life, it makes things very clear and not burdensome to figure out. Taiji did not do this. It made me physically feel good while spiritually, I felt like I was in a black hole.

The Bishop’s article said:
“Such a position of radical openness is extremely dangerous. We have abandoned those faculties given to us to direct and protect our lives: our reason, our emotions and our will. The normal use of these faculties assists us in making fully human decisions, and enabling us to be responsible for our actions. Abandoning these faculties in search of a deeper spiritual existence opens the person to all sorts of unknown forces. Our defences are down. It can lead to exposure to demonic powers.”*

And this is something I am in total agreement with, both in my experience with this and in the deliverance ministries that I have been a part of, both as a servant and recipient. What ends up happening with things like qigong, taiji is that they cloud our ability to reason, our use of emotion, and thwart our will to consider other options in lieu of Catholic teaching. It would, in some ways, be like getting “spiritual dialysis” because things we would normally hold to regarding the Faith in terms of Church teaching would slowly, over time, be flushed out and replaced with new ideas that glossed over, made light of, and eventually phased out Church teaching in our life. We compromise on one thing, then another and another, until at some point, our faith life has become indistinguishable because it has been replaced with something false.*
 
Thanks for sharing so much about your experience,SeekingHisMercy.
 
You are most welcome! Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Michael. Please keep me in your prayers and know that you are in mine. God bless you abundantly!

SHM
 
I just wanted to give my take on this. I’m thinking “no, we shouldn’t”. The fact the Church hasn’t made a statement about it doesn’t make it inocuous.

For my part, I had great interest in practicing taichi after reading about it and its purported effects. But after finding out about practicing Christians who did it and stopped (and accounts), I researched further and I found out taichi has shamanic origins, in which the moves have preternatural origins and incantational effects; and the whole thing seems like tangling with unknown spirits, who may very well have been its moves’ authors. It is known taichi began as esoteric, and it looks ritualistic enough. Since the practice is based on and reflects some philosophical assumptions, it’s more than possible you end up believing/incorporating it on some level, specially after repetition.

In Catholic literature there’s plenty other kinds of exercises and advices since peace of mind (apatheia) is a christian goal, so I’m not sure there’s an excuse for the persistence in this option.
 
Tai Chi and other martial arts for exercise and self defence purposes are NOT forbidden by the Church. People who say differently are simply scaremongering and should stop forthwith!
 
Hey thistle,

I’ll respectfully disagree and take exception with your statements about scaremongering. I have my reasons, which I’ve shared before on this forum. I made my decision with care, the counsel of multiple priests, and a great deal of prayer. I’d say I have enough experience with taijiquan to speak about it with some authority. If you don’t like my opinion, fine, but let’s be really clear that my reasons have nothing to do with “scaremongering”.

SHM
 
DakterP said:
But after finding out about practicing Christians who did it and stopped (and accounts), I researched further and I found out taichi has shamanic origins, in which the moves have preternatural origins and incantational effects; and the whole thing seems like tangling with unknown spirits, who may very well have been its moves’ authors. It is known taichi began as esoteric, and it looks ritualistic enough. Since the practice is based on and reflects some philosophical assumptions, it’s more than possible you end up believing/incorporating it on some level, specially after repetition.

In Catholic literature there’s plenty other kinds of exercises and advices since peace of mind (apatheia) is a christian goal, so I’m not sure there’s an excuse for the persistence in this option.
Click to expand...
Do you believe Chi exists?
Your concern with entanglements with spirits, if somethng physical like a movement can lead to that, do you also then believe somehing physical like burning sage (native American custom) or incense can repel them?

What Catholic exercises do you mean besides kneeling?
 
I ask these questions because research is finding many health benefits to the practice:

health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Womens_Health_Watch/2009/May/The-health-benefits-of-tai-chi

mayoclinic.com/health/tai-chi/SA00087

By their fruits we will now them. I have not seen any indication of bad fruits.

The benefits of tai chi include:
Decreased stress and anxiety
Increased aerobic capacity
Increased energy and stamina
Increased flexibility, balance and agility
Increased muscle strength and definition

Some evidence indicates that tai chi also may help:
Enhance quality of sleep
Enhance the immune system
Lower cholesterol levels and blood pressure
Improve joint pain
Improve symptoms of congestive heart failure
Improve overall well-being in older adults
Reduce risk of falls in older adults

It seems more like a gift and blessing for which we can be grateful.
 
SeekingHisMercy said:
And yet, the auxiliary bishop of Sydney has this to say:

bishopjulianporteous.com/?p=241
Click to expand...
Form that article:
Having said this, it is important to state that it is not an inevitable process for everyone who uses Yoga or Tai Chi or seeks some healing through Reiki. These practices can be used simply as physical exercises that are helpful. If a person is wary of getting caught up in the spiritual philosophies, then they can be used with no detrimental effect at the moral or spiritual level. Indeed, it may be possible for the development of similar techniques grounded in a healthy Christian spirituality. As the Church has done in past times it is possible to find ways in which they can be “baptised” and integrated into the Christian faith.

It always helps to do the research and understand the spiritual roots to our practices.
 
thistle said:
Tai Chi and other martial arts for exercise and self defence purposes are NOT forbidden by the Church. People who say differently are simply scaremongering and should stop forthwith!
Click to expand...
I noticed your reply didn’t add to the discussion or responded to the points I made, you just emphasized an argument previously used and that I had responded to in my first line.

Don’t take things out of focus, we’re not talking about self-defense in general, it’s specifically taichi, which seems to be used firstly and mostly for meditation, spiritual and health claims rather than self-defense.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
Form that article:
Having said this, it is important to state that it is not an inevitable process for everyone who uses Yoga or Tai Chi or seeks some healing through Reiki. These practices can be used simply as physical exercises that are helpful. If a person is wary of getting caught up in the spiritual philosophies, then they can be used with no detrimental effect at the moral or spiritual level. Indeed, it may be possible for the development of similar techniques grounded in a healthy Christian spirituality. As the Church has done in past times it is possible to find ways in which they can be “baptised” and integrated into the Christian faith.
Click to expand...
👍
 
Michael_Mayo said:
Do you believe Chi exists?
Your concern with entanglements with spirits, if somethng physical like a movement can lead to that, do you also then believe somehing physical like burning sage (native American custom) or incense can repel them?

What Catholic exercises do you mean besides kneeling?
Click to expand...
You don’t believe gestures may have spiritual consequences? Why do the cross sign? I suppose you kneel without feeling humbled then?

You can obviously do other kinds of exercising for the physical health, and for the persuit of peace of mind and advice, use the Catholic classics.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
I ask these questions because research is finding many health benefits to the practice:

health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Womens_Health_Watch/2009/May/The-health-benefits-of-tai-chi

mayoclinic.com/health/tai-chi/SA00087

By their fruits we will now them. I have not seen any indication of bad fruits.

The benefits of tai chi include:
Decreased stress and anxiety
Increased aerobic capacity
Increased energy and stamina
Increased flexibility, balance and agility
Increased muscle strength and definition

Some evidence indicates that tai chi also may help:
Enhance quality of sleep
Enhance the immune system
Lower cholesterol levels and blood pressure
Improve joint pain
Improve symptoms of congestive heart failure
Improve overall well-being in older adults
Reduce risk of falls in older adults

It seems more like a gift and blessing for which we can be grateful.
Click to expand...
You are willing to overlook the doubtful origins of this practice/ritual because of some benefits. I don’t think it comes without a price if you ask other faithful about their experience. You may not see any bad fruits now but you’ll see this tree is not holy. Or indispensable. Anyway, those were my conclusions.
 
DakterP said:
You don’t believe gestures may have spiritual consequences? Why do the cross sign? I suppose you kneel without feeling humbled then?

You can obviously do other kinds of exercising for the physical health, and for the persuit of peace of mind and advice, use the Catholic classics.
Click to expand...
Gestures can have spiritual benefit when we give them meaning, otherwise no, only perhaps physical benefits.

But what Catholic classics are you talking about?
 
DakterP said:
You are willing to overlook the doubtful origins of this practice/ritual because of some benefits. I don’t think it comes without a price if you ask other faithful about their experience. You may not see any bad fruits now but you’ll see this tree is not holy. Or indispensable. Anyway, those were my conclusions.
Click to expand...
Yes, the origins do not bother me. They come from another world view but that does not really matter.

Please share what bad fruits you have seen.
 
“However, an understanding of the spiritual roots to these practices is necessary to ensure that prudence accompanies their use. These practices can be dangerous at the spiritual level. In this sense they can be not good for the soul.”

By the way, the above paragraph follows that whole paragraph that you quoted, Michael. The predominant part of that article talks about the spiritual underpinnings and problematic elements of taijiquan.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
Yes, the origins do not bother me. They come from another world view but that does not really matter.

Please share what bad fruits you have seen.
Click to expand...
As for bad fruits, I’ve met a lot of lapsed Catholics who left their faith for this and through it developed their own religion, the veracity of which they affirmed through good feelings and improved physical health. They discarded doctrinal truth for a feeling. Truth became a “universal truth” that all religions were good, right roads—a total discounting of the uniqueness of Jesus Christ, His Life, Death, and Resurrection.
 
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