Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[rinnie]

ja4 one more easy one for you.

3-15 after Jesus went to heaven, THE APOSTLES said Mary was assumed into Heaven. Now just a thought, and you know Im not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but why would the Apostles

a. Lie to us about this
b. Why would our Lord and Savior reach from the heaven’s and ship his Mother straight up to heaven, if she was a sinner.
c. And then let Peter and all the Apostles who indeed lived for God be buried like everyone else.

Could it possibly be she was indeed SINLESS!

Because lets admit it, everyone else hit the dirt. We are all gonna hit the dirt, like it or not! But her Body would not be left to decay? Why oh Why I ask.

 

[Peter_J]

Not that I believe in everything about the muslims but how can the muslims believe in the God of Abraham and the God of Jesus Christ believes in the God of Abraham and it not be the same God? Ya got me again?

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven … "

• Matthew 7:21

I am just not a very good student.

…

But my problem is that you either ignore me, or just answer me with another question.

Perhaps it’s a vicious circle, i.e. maybe you’re saying to yourself “I won’t be a good student until JA pays more attention to me”, and maybe JA is thinking “I won’t pay more attention to Rinnie until she starts being a good student.” (I’m just thinking aloud here.)

 

[rinnie]

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven … "

• Matthew 7:21

Perhaps it’s a vicious circle, i.e. maybe you’re saying to yourself “I won’t be a good student until JA pays more attention to me”, and maybe JA is thinking “I won’t pay more attention to Rinnie until she starts being a good student.” (I’m just thinking aloud here.)

who knows. Not that I do not agree with your scripture Peter J but my point is the God of Abraham is their God and is also our God. That was all I was saying.

 

[Peter_J]

My personal opinion, if you want it, is that we can’t make a blanket statement that all Muslims worship the true God, or that no Muslims worship the true God. I think it’s possible that some Muslims worship the true God, despite believing some erroneous things about him.

 

[rinnie]

My personal opinion, if you want it, is that we can’t make a blanket statement that all Muslims worship the true God, or that no Muslims worship the true God. I think it’s possible that some Muslims worship the true God, despite believing some erroneous things about him.

Oh I agree, and I don’t to get off subject, but I do believe that many in their faith do believe in the God of Abraham.

 

[Good_Fella]

But it wasn’t her ‘old self/man’ of Rom 6:6 that was crucified. This is from post # 924 by Realcatholicgk, “Her sins (Old self) couldn’t be crucified because she had NO sins to be crucified.” Therefore it was her ‘new self/man’ of Ephesians 4:24 that was crucified…or ??

Mary did not possess a wounded sinful nature, so of course she was not compelled to subdue the lusts and passions of the flesh that the rest of us have to. Since she had no “old self” to begin with there could be no “new self” to acquire by the grace of God. To have an “old self” she would have had to be conceived in a state of original sin. And an acquisition of a “new self” would involve a conversion experience. Such a transistion could never have applied to Mary who was preserved free from the taint of original sin.

Constitutionally she proved to be incapable of sinning and beyond the influence of the devil’s control and temptation (Gen 3:15). But not unlike Jesus in his humanity, she did not have an easy time resisting the devil’s full assault. Adam and Eve were created sinless in God’s grace but tragically succumbed to the word of the serpent. So Mary still could have sinned by freely rejecting God’s grace. Obviously she felt the full thrust of the devil’s temptation by choosing to oppose it and not to give in to it just as Jesus refused to when he confronted the devil head on while being tempted like us. In emulation of her divine Son, Mary chose good over evil. God’s will took precedence over any self-interest the devil may have tried to stir in her by his suggestions and vain offers.

In a sense, relative to our experience as baptized Christians, Mary was crucified in the flesh (figuratively speaking a spiritual crucifixion) and had died to self when she freely chose to be obedient to God. She tells the angel Gabriel: “Let it be done to me according to your word” (Lk 1:38). She did live her life by faith in God with the help of his grace. And by refusing to be a slave to sin or disobedient to God, she was all the more human, a true image of God in his divine perfection. Our free will shines when we refuse to be a slave to sin or renounce our egos in humilty for the glory of God.

In the Magnificat of Luke’s gospel, God reveals Mary’s true faithfulness and humilty. The evangelist portrays her as a woman who was keenly aware of God’s grace in her life, set apart for a privileged vocation that did not rest on any merit of her own. When Mary refused to rely on her own resources and chose to submit to the will of God, a soul which proclaimed God’s glory, she was fully conscious of the immeasurable gap between her lowly humanity and the sovereign power of God - the source of her true blessedness. She acknowledged her own human need of redemption by the grace of God which was won by the merits of Christ’s Passion and Death. So she chose never to resist God’s grace throughout her life, knowing that she would be crowned in glory and declared blessed by all generations for having heard the word of God and keeping it.

Speaking of the Annunciation, the Blessed Virgin Mary said to St. Elizabeth of Schoeneau:
“Do you know why God did this? Because I had believed in Him and because I had humbled myself.”

“Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to fasting and sleeping on the ground.”
Gregory of Nazianzan, To Cledonius, Epistle 101 [A.D. 382]

“With her suffering and dying Son she suffered and almost died, so did she ‘surrender her mother’s rights’ for the salvation of human beings, and to appease the justice of God.”
Pope Benedict XV, Epistle Admodum probatur, 20 June 1917

So also the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully bore with her union with her Son even to the cross, where, in accord with the divine plan, she stood vehemently grieved with her Only-begotten, and joined herself to His Sacrifice with a motherly heart, ‘lovingly consenting’ to the immolation of the victim born of her.
*Vatican ll, Constitution on the Church, #58, #61 *

“Crucified spiritually with her crucified Son (cf. Gal 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented’ to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth (LG #58).”
Pope John Paul ll, Allocution at the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Guayaquil, given on 31 January 1985

PAX :heaven:

 

[Henning]

---

** I think your problem is you want every thing explained. like, Mary folded Jesus diaper, from left to right it was 18 inches x 18 inches.**

Nope, just major doctrinal issues which every aspiring Catholic should look into (especially soteriological)…that’s why I’m here at CAF.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4426179]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Are you referring to Galatians 5:19-21 which says:
19
14 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,
20
idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,
21
occasions of envy, 15 drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
???

Behavior is a result of belief. If these Galatians truly believed in Christ and were committed to Him in living their lives in conformity to His they would not be manifesting these fruits in their lives. The fact that they are showing these kinds of fruit i.e. moral corruption is evidence they are not truly believing in Christ and not committed to Him and so will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

guanophore
Really? If this is true, then why do you say that you struggle with sin, and will always fall short while you are in the body? Doesn’t that mean you lack faith?

No. There is a difference when a Christian sins and doesn’t want to (See Romans 7:16-21). Only a Christian can struggle with sin as Romans 7 alludes to because she has the Spirit of Christ in them. The unbeliever does not struggle like and rather will seek to justify it sinning and not even call it as such. All Christian struggle with sin since sin is far more than mere actions. It is also involves thoughts and attitudes. Paul uses coveting as an example in his own life in his struggle with sin. No one in this life can achieve perfection and never sin.

Originally Posted by justasking4
Many people claim to believe in a God but that does not mean it’s the God of Christianity i.e. the True God. Muslims claim to believe in God but it is not the God of the Lord Jesus Christ. There are certain and specific facts a person must believe if he-she is to enter heaven…

guanophore
This is getting more complicated all the time! Now there are specific facts! Is there a list?

In I Corinthians 15:1-4 speaks of that which is of “first importance” and this is what saves us. Unless you believe the gospel you are not saved. Notice in verses 3-4 what these specific facts are: Christ died for sins according to the Scriptures, was buried and rose again according the Scriptures. These facts must be believed or you are condemned.

What if a person never learns the right “facts” What if a person is misinformed, and doesn’t have their “facts” straight? ?

That’s why Christ gave the church teachers to teach correctly the Word of Truth so people would get the “right facts”. Many times people do get the right facts but they still do not believe.

It is kind of frightening for someone’s salvation to be dependent upon the puny human understanding of the ineffible.

I can see you don’t understand the Scriptures that well. It is not only up to the individual but the HS also. It is the HS that convicts men of their sin and shows them the implications of the gospel message.

 

[justasking4]

rinnie;4427125]
a4 one more easy one for you.

3-15 after Jesus went to heaven, THE APOSTLES said Mary was assumed into Heaven. Now just a thought, and you know Im not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but why would the Apostles

a. Lie to us about this
b. Why would our Lord and Savior reach from the heaven’s and ship his Mother straight up to heaven, if she was a sinner.
c. And then let Peter and all the Apostles who indeed lived for God be buried like everyone else.

Where did THE APOSTLES say Mary was assumed into heaven?

Could it possibly be she was indeed SINLESS!

No. The Scriptures present her just like any other fallen mortal human being. Jesus never comes close to saying she is sinless.

Because lets admit it, everyone else hit the dirt. We are all gonna hit the dirt, like it or not! But her Body would not be left to decay? Why oh Why I ask.

The church itself admits it does not know what happened to her. There just is no evidence what happened. The church asserts this claim not on evidence but speculation.

 

[justasking4]

rinnie;4427064]
Not that I believe in everything about the muslims but how can the muslims believe in the God of Abraham and the God of Jesus Christ believes in the God of Abraham and it not be the same God? Ya got me again?

Islam rejects the Trinity, the deity of Christ and that Christ died for sins. If they truly believed in the God of the Lord Jesus Who was the God of Abraham then they would also believe in the Trinty etc. Since they reject these things they don’t believe the same.

Also Im so dumb today, so Could you just answer me Yes or no. You confuse me so much sometimes, Can a person Fall from grace what is your answer again. Because you said Why would a believer in Christ fear hell if Jesus Paid the price for our sins.

Then you said when I showed you scripture about living wrong that a believer in Christ would not live that way.

You get me so confused by what you say because I know for a fact that the devil believes in Jesus. Because if he didn’t why would he be tempting us every day to get us away from God?

Its true the devil may believe in God but that does not mean he believes in Him for salvation. The devil has no desire to be reconciled to God nor does he desire to have his sins forgiven (if that were possible). His intent is the destruction of all things of God. Lots of people claim to believe in God but they live their lives as if He does not exist.

Oh ja4 you are going to have to explain so much to me. I am just not a very good student. I must not have been paying attention in Catholic School, either that or Sister was telling me just plain wrong. But my problem is that you either ignore me, or just answer me with another

This is probably part of your problem is what the sister taught you. What exactly did the sister teach you that is so confusing?

 

[justasking4]

My personal opinion, if you want it, is that we can’t make a blanket statement that all Muslims worship the true God, or that no Muslims worship the true God. I think it’s possible that some Muslims worship the true God, despite believing some erroneous things about him.

If you research on Muslims sites you should be able to find doctrinal statements about the nature of God. Compare those statements with Scripture and you will see the difference. They are not the same thing.

 

[adstrinity]

No. The Scriptures present her just like any other fallen mortal human being. Jesus never comes close to saying she is sinless.

He calls Her, “Woman.”

 

[jmcrae]

Nope, just major doctrinal issues which every aspiring Catholic should look into (especially soteriological)…that’s why I’m here at CAF.

Do yourself a major favour, and don’t try to understand what’s going on, on threads where JustAsking4 is posting, since her/his/their purpose is to confuse the issue and wind everyone up in circles.

First best bet is the Library, or else post threads of your own with specific questions, or look for threads that JA4 hasn’t gotten to, yet.

You are much more likely to receive sensible answers, that way.

 

[Henning]

Hi Good Fella. Thanks for your reply.
Have a few more questions, if I may, about Mary’s sinlessness.

Mary did not possess a wounded sinful nature, so of course she was not compelled to subdue the lusts and passions of the flesh that the rest of us have to. Since she had no “old self” to begin with there could be no “new self” to acquire by the grace of God. To have an “old self” she would have had to be conceived in a state of original sin. And an acquisition of a “new self” would involve a conversion experience. Such a transistion could never have applied to Mary who was preserved free from the taint of original sin.

Constitutionally she proved to be incapable of sinning and beyond the influence of the devil’s control and temptation (Gen 3:15). But not unlike Jesus in his humanity, she did not have an easy time resisting the devil’s full assault. Adam and Eve were created sinless in God’s grace but tragically succumbed to the word of the serpent. So Mary still could have sinned by freely rejecting God’s grace. Obviously she felt the full thrust of the devil’s temptation by choosing to oppose it and not to give in to it just as Jesus refused to when he confronted the devil head on while being tempted like us. In emulation of her divine Son, Mary chose good over evil. God’s will took precedence over any self-interest the devil may have tried to stir in her by his suggestions and vain offers.
Good Fella;4427422:

In a sense, relative to our experience as baptized Christians, Mary was crucified in the flesh

(figuratively speaking a spiritual crucifixion)
So Mary was spiritually crucified unto a death, and was therefore baptized into Christ (Rom 6:3,8)?

and had died to self when she freely chose to be obedient to God.

what ‘self’ was this that died, and therefore what ‘self’ remained ?

She tells the angel Gabriel: “Let it be done to me according to your word” (Lk 1:38). She did live her life by faith in God with the help of his grace. And by refusing to be a slave to sin or disobedient to God, she was all the more human, a true image of God

in his divine perfection. Our free will shines when we refuse to be a slave to sin or renounce our egos in humilty for the glory of God.
A little off topic but both Mary and Jesus are images of God (2Cor 4:4)?

This doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness, especially when reading Paul, are yet difficult for me. I’ll probably have more questions . H

 

[Henning]

Do yourself a major favour, and don’t try to understand what’s going on, on threads where JustAsking4 is posting, since her/his/their purpose is to confuse the issue and wind everyone up in circles.

First best bet is the Library, or else post threads of your own with specific questions, or look for threads that JA4 hasn’t gotten to, yet.

You are much more likely to receive sensible answers, that way.

new threads with specific questions…yes

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
No. The Scriptures present her just like any other fallen mortal human being. Jesus never comes close to saying she is sinless.

adstrinity
He calls Her, “Woman.”

True. However “Woman” does not mean sinless.

 

[justasking4]

Do yourself a major favour, and don’t try to understand what’s going on, on threads where JustAsking4 is posting, since her/his/their purpose is to confuse the issue and wind everyone up in circles.

First best bet is the Library, or else post threads of your own with specific questions, or look for threads that JA4 hasn’t gotten to, yet.

You are much more likely to receive sensible answers, that way.

View attachment 4579

 

[adstrinity]

True. However “Woman” does not mean sinless.

How many other women did He specifically call, “Woman”?

 

[guanophore]

No one in this life can achieve perfection and never sin.

If this is true, then no one has sufficient faith to be saved, or God’s grace is not very strong - the sin nature, the flesh, the world and the devil are more powerful than puny God.

 These facts must be believed or you are condemned.

Wow. That quickly dispatches all the children and mentally deficient.

 That’s why Christ gave the church teachers to teach correctly the Word of Truth so people would get the “right facts”. Many times people do get the right facts but they still do not believe.

I agree, but then, who determines which teacher has the “right facts”? Obviously you are on this thread because you deny the doctrines of Mary and intercession, as well as the Apostolic Docrine of the communion of Saints.

 I can see you don’t understand the Scriptures that well. :eek: It is not only up to the individual but the HS also. It is the HS that convicts men of their sin and shows them the implications of the gospel message.

So, a person can want to get saved, but if they don’t have all their facts right, and they are unable to hear the HS, then they are condemned?

No. The Scriptures present her just like any other fallen mortal human being. Jesus never comes close to saying she is sinless.

Well, we read it differently.

Catholics understand that being “filled with grace” means that there is no room for sin. We also understand that the one who “hears the word of God, and does it” will not sin.

The church itself admits it does not know what happened to her. There just is no evidence what happened. The church asserts this claim not on evidence but speculation.

No, ja4, this is not true. The Church does not claim to know if she was deceased, or if He took her prior to that. The Church knows that she is in heaven with her Divine Son because that is what was revealed about her.

If you research on Muslims sites you should be able to find doctrinal statements about the nature of God. Compare those statements with Scripture and you will see the difference. They are not the same thing.

Your bigotry is leaking again, ja4. the Muslims believe in the God of Abraham. It is the same God that the Jews claim. Therefore, if you say the Muslims worship a "different’ God, then the Jews do also. That means, scripture must be wrong when it states “salvation is of the Jews”, since the Jews don’t “get” it. Do you deny that salvation is of the Jews?

 

[guanophore]

True. However “Woman” does not mean sinless.

He refers to her as Woman as a title, mother of all living, she was created just like the first Woman, without sin. She embodies what God desires for Woman to be.