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stpurl
Guest
Actually no. That’s one of the ‘old wives tales’ in that it was presented as this being done ‘because people didn’t understand what was going on’.
Let me address by point:
A. Much of the Mass was spoken in low voices. It was not about ‘knowing what was said’ which, in any case, as the priest faced orientem, was focused on talking to GOD, not the people.
B. Most people had access to a Missal which gave the relevant Latin/vernacular language. Catholic schools also focused to a large extent on the Latin prayers, the form of the Mass, what was being said, and why.
C. The dimensions of Mass were broad. One person might worship by reciting the rosary with strong attention to including prayers at the foot of the cross or other indulgenced prayers, as well as meditation and other contemplative prayers which all came into harmony with the ‘points’ of the Mass. Also one could attend confession if one needed to. One could pray at various stations and chapels in the larger churches. One could be reading along in the Missal and meditating on the gospel and the readings. Etc. actually for many people this Mass was more helpful than the OF because there was less opportunity for boredom, more freedom of movement and thought, more focus on the spiritual and ‘vertical’ aspects, and more senses involved —lights, smells, music/bells, beads, etc.
Granted that for some (and it is ironic that most people paint the TLM people as rigid, unbending, and wanting everything ‘just right’, as seen by the above the TLM people are far more open, relaxed, etc simply because there is an overlying ‘rubric’ to the entire Mass but freedom within), such an INTERNAL freedom is uncomfortable. That’s why the average OF attendee if actually much more rigid. There is no opportunity for freedom within the Mass structure. Entrance sing, one of several options prayers, readings, gospel, creed, Liturgy of the Eucharist, Our Father, Communion, good bye. For all the ‘options’ in between are themselves external and it is the priest, not speaking to God but rather speaking to us, who ‘enforces’ what we hear. Even there we have no time to ourselves to ponder what we hear or say. It’s all, “You do this and then immediately you do that or you sing this”. Instead of you having to think about what you are worshipping, as at the TLM, you are part of a collective which is being told what to do by somebody who has chosen FOR you.
Now I have no problem with a TLM which utilizes the vernacular at the readings, or even some additional readings (and bring back the Last Gospel and Benediction too), but it seems to me that even if the intention were not to make Mass conform not to the individual worshipper as it had always done so that they joined in a continuous and unchanging worship presented on their behalf by the priest leading them, but rather to make the individual worshipper conform to whatever one person’s judgment of what Mass he or she decided would be offered for all, with ‘participation’ to be these words or that song and NONE OTHER. . .that the latter is what came about, to the enrichment of none.
Let me address by point:
A. Much of the Mass was spoken in low voices. It was not about ‘knowing what was said’ which, in any case, as the priest faced orientem, was focused on talking to GOD, not the people.
B. Most people had access to a Missal which gave the relevant Latin/vernacular language. Catholic schools also focused to a large extent on the Latin prayers, the form of the Mass, what was being said, and why.
C. The dimensions of Mass were broad. One person might worship by reciting the rosary with strong attention to including prayers at the foot of the cross or other indulgenced prayers, as well as meditation and other contemplative prayers which all came into harmony with the ‘points’ of the Mass. Also one could attend confession if one needed to. One could pray at various stations and chapels in the larger churches. One could be reading along in the Missal and meditating on the gospel and the readings. Etc. actually for many people this Mass was more helpful than the OF because there was less opportunity for boredom, more freedom of movement and thought, more focus on the spiritual and ‘vertical’ aspects, and more senses involved —lights, smells, music/bells, beads, etc.
Granted that for some (and it is ironic that most people paint the TLM people as rigid, unbending, and wanting everything ‘just right’, as seen by the above the TLM people are far more open, relaxed, etc simply because there is an overlying ‘rubric’ to the entire Mass but freedom within), such an INTERNAL freedom is uncomfortable. That’s why the average OF attendee if actually much more rigid. There is no opportunity for freedom within the Mass structure. Entrance sing, one of several options prayers, readings, gospel, creed, Liturgy of the Eucharist, Our Father, Communion, good bye. For all the ‘options’ in between are themselves external and it is the priest, not speaking to God but rather speaking to us, who ‘enforces’ what we hear. Even there we have no time to ourselves to ponder what we hear or say. It’s all, “You do this and then immediately you do that or you sing this”. Instead of you having to think about what you are worshipping, as at the TLM, you are part of a collective which is being told what to do by somebody who has chosen FOR you.
Now I have no problem with a TLM which utilizes the vernacular at the readings, or even some additional readings (and bring back the Last Gospel and Benediction too), but it seems to me that even if the intention were not to make Mass conform not to the individual worshipper as it had always done so that they joined in a continuous and unchanging worship presented on their behalf by the priest leading them, but rather to make the individual worshipper conform to whatever one person’s judgment of what Mass he or she decided would be offered for all, with ‘participation’ to be these words or that song and NONE OTHER. . .that the latter is what came about, to the enrichment of none.
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Hodos
Guest
If you are performing the prayers of the rosary at the same time of the liturgy you are choosing to not participate in corporate worship in favor of private devotion. So unless you have borrowed Hermione Granger’s time turner, that is the reality. My point is that these two things should not be in competition. When attending corporate worship, be engaged with the rest of the body of Christ in that corporate worship, together. You have plenty of time to engage in private devotion on your own.
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Odilon
Guest
Praying the rosary during Mass would be a big problem to me. One could not concentrate on either and it would be extremely disrespectful to Our Lord by not concentrating on His great sacrifice which the Mass truly is.
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Odilon
Guest
I completely agree!
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stpurl
Guest
I thought I was careful to state that these were my opinions regarding Mass at regards my last statements. I do not believe that my points A, B, or C actually contradict Father Pacwa. Again, we all (that includes you, me, and Father Pacwa) have heard over the years the narrative of how the OF came about because ‘people wanted to understand’ but we also heard several other narratives as well, to include the fact that the actual documents of Vatican II themselves did not call for the Mass to be all vernacular. It is a complex story but I stand by the OF not arising because “the people could not understand’ as being the proximate cause; people may have thought this was the case (and thought so with the best of intentions) but again, the documents of Vatican II put that theory to rest. It then becomes more a narrative of some specific people —some theologians and clergy who then found eager listeners in some laity—deciding that the Mass needed to change ‘for that reason.’
It is also a fact that the TLM was never abrogated, yet supposedly ‘the people’ and the clergy were kept from its celebrate for nearly 40 years throughout the US except in a handful of places for a handful of people. And also, the fact that the Mass was never abrogated and continues to be celebrated as a valid rite of the Mass also speaks to the fact that the OF being formed ‘because the people couldn’t understand the language” is at best a misunderstanding and at worst a deliberate attempt to formulate an entirely ‘new’ Mass with an entirely new focus though the OF certainly remains a perfectly valid rite.
Again, when it comes to the OF it has been here. I find it lacking in certain areas (personal preference) but it is a valid rite and as such while I prefer the EF I would not say that the OF does not fulfill its function as a Mass, or that people cannot meet their obligation with it, or indeed that it does not have a beauty of its own, and that for many it feeds them more than adequately. Just as some people prefer a ‘clean simplicity’ (which has its beauty) and others a warm and multifaceted, layered composition (also having its beauty), it comes down to preference.
It is hard to realize that expressing a preference is sometimes perceived, in the choice of one over another, giving the reasons one finds one thing superior, as being a hatred or dislike for the second.
I go by my standard vanilla and chocolate. People can like both but have a preference for one over the other. The man who likes vanilla over chocolate is hardly saying that vanilla is the best for ‘everybody’ or that chocolate should be condemned as pig swill!
It is also a fact that the TLM was never abrogated, yet supposedly ‘the people’ and the clergy were kept from its celebrate for nearly 40 years throughout the US except in a handful of places for a handful of people. And also, the fact that the Mass was never abrogated and continues to be celebrated as a valid rite of the Mass also speaks to the fact that the OF being formed ‘because the people couldn’t understand the language” is at best a misunderstanding and at worst a deliberate attempt to formulate an entirely ‘new’ Mass with an entirely new focus though the OF certainly remains a perfectly valid rite.
Again, when it comes to the OF it has been here. I find it lacking in certain areas (personal preference) but it is a valid rite and as such while I prefer the EF I would not say that the OF does not fulfill its function as a Mass, or that people cannot meet their obligation with it, or indeed that it does not have a beauty of its own, and that for many it feeds them more than adequately. Just as some people prefer a ‘clean simplicity’ (which has its beauty) and others a warm and multifaceted, layered composition (also having its beauty), it comes down to preference.
It is hard to realize that expressing a preference is sometimes perceived, in the choice of one over another, giving the reasons one finds one thing superior, as being a hatred or dislike for the second.
I go by my standard vanilla and chocolate. People can like both but have a preference for one over the other. The man who likes vanilla over chocolate is hardly saying that vanilla is the best for ‘everybody’ or that chocolate should be condemned as pig swill!
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BarbTh
Guest
Sometimes, a person can find it very difficult to concentrate on the liturgy and their mind wanders. If it were me, I would pray the Rosary during Mass as it puts me in to prayer mode. Ask Our Lady to help you attend Mass as we are ideally called to do. But please do not stress over The Mass. At lease you are in prayer mode and Our Lady would be well aware of the ideal attendance and is helping you. Possibly it is not a very obvious help… How to stay focused on The Mass (Practical Tips)
All of us have problems meeting the ideal. If it is not the ideal attendance at Mass, then it certainly is in some other area and/or areas.
Be in Peace
All of us have problems meeting the ideal. If it is not the ideal attendance at Mass, then it certainly is in some other area and/or areas.
Be in Peace
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Odilon
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That makes no sense at all, as being at Mass should be enough to put one in a proper prayer mode. Good grief, the Holy Mass is the highest form of prayer any Catholic can participate in. It’s all about doing what is to be done in a certain place and time.
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We’ve been down this road before on CAF. Suffice it to say, there are different schools of thought, even from the Church herself — unless one adopts what I call a “recentist” approach, meaning that you follow the most recent wishes of the Church, and everything prior to that just disappears down some rabbit hole, I would take to heart both of these:
Maybe this is what I was thinking of in the previous comment.
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BarbTh
Guest
I am now 75 next month (January 2021) and I have certainly found that my spirituality has changed at times over my journey. At times, I have found myself cooling almost right off and unable to pray in a meaningful way. At other times, it has been the complete opposite. No matter one’s personal experience, it comes about through God’s Will (His Direct or Permissive Will); hence, even in negative matters in one’s journey, it is a cause to praise and thank God.
Incidentally, if you do come across a quotation in support, please do let me know. I would be very grateful indeed.
Thank you for your post
Mine too. I have had to change my prayer routines, the prayers I say, when I say them, and so on, throughout my life. In my dotage, I find myself getting kind of narcoleptic from time to time, and repetitive prayer starts putting me to sleep. I have found myself nodding off during Mass — obviously I can’t quit going to Mass, but it is a cross for me, that it wasn’t ten years ago. I also find my mind wandering during long prayers — I am not ADHD or ADD, but I do have a very fertile, quick mind, and it drifts easily. Everyone is different. God knows His own. He didn’t stamp us all out with a cookie cutter.HomeschoolDad:
I am now 75 next month (January 2021) and I have certainly found that my spirituality has changed at times over my journey. At times, I have found myself cooling almost right off and unable to pray in a meaningful way. At other times, it has been the complete opposite. No matter one’s personal experience, it comes about through God’s Will (His Direct or Permissive Will); hence, even in negative matters in one’s journey, it is a cause to praise and thank God.
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BarbTh
Guest
There could be a bit of danger in the above type of fixed general attitude with a sort of lack of flexibility and recognition of differences, it could lead to scruples. Scruples could lead on to other problems in that there could be a failure to recognize with clarity that one is a sinner with all others (spiritual pride?) - we all are sinners without exception. We differ possibly only in kind and/or degree.
I might succeed here and here, but then I am certainly without any doubt failing there and there.
I thought you were spot on in stating that we are called to ideal attendance at Mass. I stumbled when you seemed to state (paraphrasing) that that ideal attendance must be attained by all in all instances seemingly without any exceptions at all.
My apologies if I have misunderstood your meaning.
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redcatholic
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My thirteen year old daughter actively prays the rosary at Mass. and it’s pretty easy for her. She prays 3 rosaries a day, she is the only child I have out of seven that has, unprompted, adopted a prayer regimen.
I noticed her praying during mass a few months ago and we talked about it. Our music is horrific, so she prays during the singing. Also even though we have excellent priests, none speak English as a first language. French, Polish, and spanish accents are heavy and I don’t think they are easy for her to understand. So the homily can be an incredibly hard time to keep focus on Jesus. Also, because of her daily devotion she has achieved at a rather young age an ability to meditate on theology, or mysteries while praying without having to concentrate so much on prayers. She says the sorrowful mysteries are her Mass rosary focus. After communion is her most noticeable time of prayer. She may or may not finish the rosary in any given Mass. I’ve heard arguments both for and against, but she is guided by a deep desire to do this. I couldn’t personally pray the rosary and feel like I was participating but then again most of the time I’m distracted anyway from Mass. So I think here, may be an example of the student being the teacher.
I noticed her praying during mass a few months ago and we talked about it. Our music is horrific, so she prays during the singing. Also even though we have excellent priests, none speak English as a first language. French, Polish, and spanish accents are heavy and I don’t think they are easy for her to understand. So the homily can be an incredibly hard time to keep focus on Jesus. Also, because of her daily devotion she has achieved at a rather young age an ability to meditate on theology, or mysteries while praying without having to concentrate so much on prayers. She says the sorrowful mysteries are her Mass rosary focus. After communion is her most noticeable time of prayer. She may or may not finish the rosary in any given Mass. I’ve heard arguments both for and against, but she is guided by a deep desire to do this. I couldn’t personally pray the rosary and feel like I was participating but then again most of the time I’m distracted anyway from Mass. So I think here, may be an example of the student being the teacher.
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Odilon
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Then those who need an “umph” to get into a proper Mass prayer mode should perhaps utter a quick ejaculation and then focus on the Mass. Notwithstanding good Pope Pius’s words on this one, I respectfully disagree with him.
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otjm
Guest
Not to make too fine a point of it, but it is no longer the 1950s, let alone the 1880s.
The Mass is not a devotion. It is a liturgy.
It is retained, and Gregorian Chant has pride of place; and as there are exceedingly few choirs that have mastered it, it is most often found in the diocesan cathedral. Latin is retained (as well as Greek); it just is not used much.
The Mass is not a devotion. It is a liturgy.
It is retained, and Gregorian Chant has pride of place; and as there are exceedingly few choirs that have mastered it, it is most often found in the diocesan cathedral. Latin is retained (as well as Greek); it just is not used much.
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Odilon
Guest
How can she properly meditate on the various mysteries during Mass? Such a thing takes time and concentration, so I suspect that she is just repeating the decades by rote and what now exists with her is someone being inattentive to the Holy Mass. My opinion is that you err in not instructing her to focus on the Holy Mass.
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otjm
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And I would suggest that as neither Pope initiated the Mass in the vernacular, both were responding to the fact that nearly zero percent of the faithful could speak Latin or translate it on the fly, and both conceded that it would be better to say a rosary than to si daydreaming during the Mass. Your reliance on their comments also ignores the 2,147 bishops (with 4 others in opposition) who signed Sacrosanctum Concilium - the document in which they expressed their desire that people actively participate in the Mass - active participation not being the recitation of a private devotion.
And I suspect that if one were to be transported back to the Last Supper, and went over to Mary to start a private conversation, she would politely say “Shhh” and point to Jesus - telling you to pay attention. There is a reason the moral law requires that we attend Mass once a week, and interestingly, the moral law is absolutely silent on any requirement to say the rosary.
And that is not to denigrate the rosary; but anyone who attends the EF can avail themselves of a missal if they are regular attendees; the inability to speak Latin is thereby alleviated.
And I suspect that if one were to be transported back to the Last Supper, and went over to Mary to start a private conversation, she would politely say “Shhh” and point to Jesus - telling you to pay attention. There is a reason the moral law requires that we attend Mass once a week, and interestingly, the moral law is absolutely silent on any requirement to say the rosary.
And that is not to denigrate the rosary; but anyone who attends the EF can avail themselves of a missal if they are regular attendees; the inability to speak Latin is thereby alleviated.
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