Can our democracy survive if most Republicans think the government is illegitimate?

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PaulinVA

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...dfe688-3b14-11eb-9276-ae0ca72729be_story.html

First, in a winner-take-all presidential system, Americans are increasingly subject to minority rule. Since 1992, with a single exception (in 2004), no Republican presidential candidate has won a majority of the popular vote. Trump is a remarkable figure in American politics, but he got just 46.1 percent of the popular vote in 2016 and 46.8 percent last month, strikingly similar to John McCain’s and Mitt Romney’s totals. Nevertheless, since 1992, Republicans have occupied the White House for 12 years and run the Senate for 18 years, thanks to rules that guarantee rural overrepresentation.

Second, as Republican flag-bearers failed, the party seemed to have gradually lost confidence that it could win a majority of the popular vote in free and fair contests. There is growing evidence that adherence to soft democratic norms (not threatening critics with “Lock ’em up” or violence, for instance) crumbled, and authoritarian values and practices started to take root in the party, even before Trump descended his golden escalator. These rely on the notion that one tribe is under existential threat from another, justifying progressively more radical actions in (what adherents see as) self-defense. Republicans have sought political advantage, for instance, by suppressing voting rights through strict state voter-ID laws and limited access to convenient balloting.
 
Rutherford B. Hayes, President, 1877-1881 was thought by many to have won by fraud. I was not aware of that. It was argued until shortly before the inauguration so we have been through similar before.

 
Sure it can. It survived when most Democrats thought Trump’s election in 2016 was illegitimate.
Totally untrue.

Most non-Trumpers thought he won fair and square. They just thought he was unqualified.
 
Well, they say Trump is denying he lost to keep control over the GOP. For what? He’s not going to even get the nod in 2024, others will snatch the nomination. So he won’t be president again.

The reason is that those kowtowing to Trump will start to fade away. After more of his financial and tax hijinks become public, there will be folks moving away from Trump, at least among the people who hold office as Republicans. However, there will always be a cadre of ‘true believers’ who will stay in Trump’s corner, but these will be some isolated citizens who mistrust anything printed with which they disagree.

I don’t know what the evangelicals will do when Trump is never again shown at religious services.
 
I’ll say that this is a concern of mine. Not so much because of their devotion to Trump as their willingness to dismiss facts. I don’t know how you bring folks back from that.
 
It survived when most Democrats thought Trump’s election in 2016 was illegitimate.
I don’t know a single person who thinks Trump’s election in 2016 was illegitimate. I know lots of people who were stunned when he actually won. I know many who think he is an incompetent buffoon. I know many who think he is on the list of the top ten worse things that ever happened to America. I know a few who think he colluded with the Russians and many more who think there was no collusion but lots of foreign influence in 2016. But to say that most Democrats thought he was an illegitimate president is hogwash.
 
I couldn’t read it, it’s behind a paywall. I voted for Trump but Joe Biden is my president. I hope after the electoral system votes tomorrow, and especially after Inauguration Day, the media will just ignore Trump. Was there fraud in the election, yes. Did it happen on both sides, yes. Does it happen every election, yes. Was it enough to effect the outcome, no. I mostly align with Republican policies, but I’m an American first. I hope that the Biden administration is a success for all Americans. If not, we have elections at least every 4 years to remedy any shortcomings. And that is what makes this country great. I hope my sentiment is shared with the majority of other Republicans. But I doubt major news outlets will cover that. They still need sensation and outrage to sell advertisements.
 
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I don’t think “most Republicans” think the government is illegitimate. The noise made by the ones who do – or claim to, for whatever reasons – makes it seem like more than it is.
 
Pretty well settles it, there is no reason to tie up voting machines after a forensic audit.
But the Secretary of State and the judge claim there are good reasons:

“At this time, it is completely unclear to the Secretary what information Plaintiff and his agents were granted access to and permitted to image,” the motion states. “It is certainly possible that Plaintiff and his agents obtained information, the release of which could present election security concerns to the State of Michigan.”

 
I don’t know a single person who thinks Trump’s election in 2016 was illegitimate.
I know plenty who think Trump should never have been there. I’ve seen evidence of plenty more people who think he should never have been there. Whether he was “legitimate” isn’t the point. It’s about being “not my president.” The republic survived such antics, and I think it will do so even with a Biden presidency.

But, as one pundit noted:


Washington DC and other cities weren’t boarded up out of concern for a Biden victory.

But to say that most Democrats thought he was an illegitimate president is hogwash.
Touché. To think that most Republicans think Biden will be an illegitimate president is hogwash.
 
Well, they say Trump is denying he lost to keep control over the GOP. For what? He’s not going to even get the nod in 2024, others will snatch the nomination. So he won’t be president again.
I wonder if he will ne through the litigation that is waiting for him by then.
I’ll say that this is a concern of mine. Not so much because of their devotion to Trump as their willingness to dismiss facts. I don’t know how you bring folks back from that.
This always makes me think of the cult that was waiting for the aliens to pick them up in a desert. Rather then come back to reality when no aliens came, theybedited their narrative to further reinforce their stance.

One theory is that one doesn’t necessarily separate a stance from their identity. If the stance is shown as wrong, than that is like an injury to one’s self esteem. Protecting that faulty position also protects ones feelings.
Americans are increasingly subject to minority rule.
That’s a feature, not a bug.
 
Okay, he was unqualified from the beginning and had conflicts of interest from the beginning
More examples.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/28/politics/jimmy-carter-trump-russia-interference/index.html

“I don’t want to live in a country run by Vladimir Putin. I don’t think anybody in the country should want that,” the woman said. “He is an illegitimate president in my mind,” she added. The crowd cheered. “And my biggest fear is that he’s going to do it again with the help of Vlad, his best pal, and we’re going to be stuck with four more years of him,” the woman continued. “And that is terrifying. It’s terrifying.”

“Would you be my vice presidential candidate?” Biden replied, before then agreeing with what the woman said. “Folks look I absolutely agree,’ he said. “And one of the things, we have to get this part straight in my view. In my view. You will never hear me speak ill of another Democratic presidential candidate and there’s a simple reason for that: We have to be in a position for the Democratic nominee to win.”
Wait, Biden agrees that Trump is an “illegitimate president”? Or only an “illegitimate president” in her mind? :roll_eyes:

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/07/donald-trump-illegitimate-president/

 
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But, you can’t refute my statement. He still has conflicts of interest. Still.
That’s not the point. The point is that the republic survived calls of Trump’s presidency as illegitimate. It will survive such efforts to call Biden’s presidency also illegitimate.
 
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