Can someone help explain why abortion is much worse than the Iraqi War?

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But is it self defense when he/she is killed by another well after any way to defend the victim has come to past? What if the aggressor is mentally handicapped? Still ok with the death penalty?
What do you mean “ok with the death penalty?” I’m opposed to the death penalty. I just don’t think it is equivalent to abortion. Regarding other factors, mental capacity, revenge killing as opposed to self-defense, etc.; yes, these are all mitigating factors that effect the sinfulness and/or gravity of the act.
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josephdavid:
Killing an enemy of war is not considered because when under direct fire under combat it is self-defense ( I have been consoled by many priests about this one sad to say). However, if you start a war that is morally wrong for political, financial, etc. etc. that is sin.
To kill your enemy after he/she has surrendered and is unarmed is murder. Not only by Geneval Convention but also CCC.
The only disagreement we have there is bolded above. If you are in a war, as a soldier, you may be called upon to initiate the attack. You don’t have to wait for your enemy to directly fire upon you in order for your attack to be licit.

I am unclear about the question of the reason for war (“morally wrong for political, financial, etc.”) and the effect that has on the acts of the individual soldier. I don’t believe, for example, that a US soldier performing his duties is in a state of mortal sin for going to Iraq and doing his job, even though there is a question about the licitness of the war. This assumes, of course, that the soldier is not firing on an enemy who has his hands up in surrender and the like…
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josephdavid:
I agree it is sad and disturbing the amount of innocent life in the womb is snuffed out each day, but so is the life snuffed out by human greed, political gains, hatred, etc.
We all agree that “life snuffed out by…” is sad. That is not what is in question here. The question is “why abortion is much worse than the Iraq War.” I think I have made the case for that.
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josephdavid:
I have pointed out again and again where in CCC, Scripture and Catholic Social Teacher this case. Its up to you to accept it or not. Its part of Free Will. It’s between you and your Creator.
I have accepted everything from the Catechism as truth (whether you quoted it or not), so I’m not sure what you are getting at. On the other hand, you have not been able to demonstrate that abortion is not worse than war (Iraq or otherwise). Until you do, you have lost the argument.
 
On the other hand, you have not been able to demonstrate that abortion is not worse than war (Iraq or otherwise). Until you do, you have lost the argument.
And you have failed to provide evidence with in Scripture, CCC and Catholic Social Teaching which says killing of a child in the womb is graver sin than killing a child or other innocent lives out of the womb.

You only have in realms of Republican politics.
 
You only have in realms of Republican politics.
You, my friend, sound a bit too partisan to have a logical debate about this. I didn’t bring in anything political to this discussion. I provided an argument based on logic, and even conceded that the Iraq War was not “justified morally” according to our Pope. I also told you I am against the death penalty.

As you are apparently reduced to attacking me based on my chosen political party, rather than the argument at hand, I accept your admission that you have no compelling argument.
 
And you have failed to provide evidence with in Scripture, CCC and Catholic Social Teaching which says** killing of a child in the womb is graver sin than killing a child or other innocent lives out of the womb**.
Is that the question of the thread? Nope.
 
…Or… killing another in revenge, when we clearly have ways to isolate them and keep them from being any further danger to society.
Yes…I agree…that also is not the question posed in this thread. Good point. :rolleyes:

You do realize that my abortion v capital punishment, etc. argument was used to demonstrate the answer to the question of abortion v. Iraq War, right? Apparently not. 😦
 
Yes…I agree…that also is not the question posed in this thread. Good point. :rolleyes:

You do realize that my abortion v capital punishment, etc. argument was used to demonstrate the answer to the question of abortion v. Iraq War, right? Apparently not. 😦
So you believe it is perfectly acceptable that tens of thousands of innocent lives were snuffed out by a war that was not morally necessary and justifiable. I say this because of faulty intelligence, negligence in planning, etc.

You really find that acceptable? You believe those lives are not as important as a child in the womb?
 
Abortion is an invasion of a mothers womb for personal benefit, how much worse can you get.
 
Abortion is an invasion of a mothers womb for personal benefit, how much worse can you get.
So you are OK with invading a soverign country under faulty (if not false) pretenses which results of the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents?

Sorry I can not take this thread and its arguments seriously. No one yet has pointed out that life the womb is greater than the life out the womb. I have pointed out that ALL life (in and out of the womb) are sacred and to be defended. Wether you choose to accept this is your choice.
 
So you believe it is perfectly acceptable that tens of thousands of innocent lives were snuffed out by a war that was not morally necessary and justifiable. I say this because of faulty intelligence, negligence in planning, etc.

You really find that acceptable? You believe those lives are not as important as a child in the womb?
Let me try to summarize my arguments, since you have obviously ignored them.
  1. All death is tragic and all humans have equal intrinsic value.
  2. The death of an innocent is worse than the death of someone who is guilty of a crime and, it can was argued by someone else and I agreed, you could even say that the death of an innocent child is worse than that of an innocent adult, since the child has not reached the age of reason. As you agree that the capacity for reason (e.g. “mentally handicapped”) has an effect on innocence/guilt, I will assume you agree, as well.
  3. Abortion is wrong under any circumstances, as it is the direct killing of a completely innocent child.
  4. War is sometimes licit, therefore abortion is intrinsically worse than war.
  5. The Pope (especially when he was Cardinal Ratzinger) clearly felt that the Iraq War was not justified. However, that doesn’t mean that individual soldiers are committing mortal sin.
  6. The** sheer numbers **of innocents killed by abortion are far worse than the numbers of innocents killed in the Iraq War.
  7. The Iraq War has a shorter **time period **and will come to an end, whereas abortion has no end in sight. (that is a new argument, but I believe it is relevant).
Therefore, Abortion is much worse than the Iraq War.
 
So you are OK with invading a soverign country under faulty (if not false) pretenses which results of the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents?

Sorry I can not take this thread and its arguments seriously. No one yet has pointed out that life the womb is greater than the life out the womb. I have pointed out that ALL life (in and out of the womb) are sacred and to be defended. Wether you choose to accept this is your choice.
That’s because you aren’t trying to answer the question of the thread and/or are not being serious in your arguments.
 
That’s because you aren’t trying to answer the question of the thread and/or are not being serious in your arguments.
I did. You choose not to agree with my views and with out pointing out why abortion is graver than Iraq War with in CCC and Scripture.
 
I did. You choose not to agree with my views and with out pointing out why abortion is graver than Iraq War with in CCC and Scripture.
I did…you just ignored it. Your “views” don’t have any logic or proof involved. I’ve laid out a solid argument and responded to your Catechism quotes, showing that they supported my argument. If you have no capacity for logic, that can’t be helped.

If someone else reading the thread would like to challenge my points with logical debate, please post something.
 
I did…you just ignored it. Your “views” don’t have any logic or proof involved. I’ve laid out a solid argument and responded to your Catechism quotes, showing that they supported my argument. If you have no capacity for logic, that can’t be helped.

If someone else reading the thread would like to challenge my points with logical debate, please post something.
I am illogical because I value all life as sacred and to be defended? Interesting.
 
Abortion is worse than the Iraq war by sheer numbers.

Abortion, in the US, has taken about 1,200,000 lives per year. Since 1972, when it was nationally legalized, the total is more than forty million innocent souls.

You cannot convince me that 40,000,000 innocent civilians have died in the Iraq war, or even that that many people have been killed there.

Over and out,

Ruthie
 
I am illogical because I value all life as sacred and to be defended? Interesting.
Nope. You are illogical because you can’t defend the idea that the Iraq War is equal to or more important than Abortion. That is what the thread is about.

The idea that all life is sacred is something you and I have in common.
 
Nope. You are illogical because you can’t defend the idea that the Iraq War is equal to or more important than Abortion. That is what the thread is about.

The idea that all life is sacred is something you and I have in common.
Please educate me Robert. Where in CCC, Scripture does it say deaths in war is not equal to deaths from abortion?

According to you my evidence with in CCC does not agree with you. So show me where you find in CCC and Scripture that death of civilians in war is not equal to death by abortion?
 
Please educate me Robert. Where in CCC, Scripture does it say deaths in war is not equal to deaths from abortion?

According to you my evidence with in CCC does not agree with you. So show me where you find in CCC and Scripture that death of civilians in war is not equal to death by abortion?
Not until you phrase the question properly. I have never stated that death is not equal to death.
 
I am illogical because I value all life as sacred and to be defended? Interesting.
Not sure I’d say you are illogical.
We have no proof yet of your abilities in logic.
You have not engaged in the discussion yet.
You seem to have made a statement, then repeated it a few times.

Your statement has been addressed (very well I might add) by RobertLGarrett.
You have yet to engage him in his response.

I’ve had this exact discussion with my father recently.
I’m a pro-life (all life) guy that dislikes politics and my father is a die-hard democrat. I keep warning him not to put his faith in any politician because, eventually, they will let you down.

So we kept our discussion on the topic of life and it’s value.

He stated that abortion was not the only life issue we need to consider.
I agreed and said we must also discuss the death penalty, war, and euthanasia.

It can be argued that the death penalty and war can actually be justified. I, personally, do not believe this is the case today,though.
The life given to you is a gift from God and you have a responsibility (not just a right) to defend your life. If there is no other alternative, you are justified in protecting your life even if it results in the ultimate demise of the life of the attacker.

As well, if you are a father, you have the same responsibility to protect your family if there is no other option.

As well, if you are responsible for a community, you have a responsibility to protect your community if there is no other option.

If there is a person that, if let loose on society, will kill others, and there is no other way to protect that society, it could be a justified execution… but only because there is no other option. I believe that today we have other options. In fact, I’d love to see us go back to the Cool Hand Luke style of prison time. I love the tent city desert prison in Arizona. While I don’t care for the death penalty, I’m surprisingly okay with cruel and unusual punishment. (guess i need to work on that)

Can war be justified? Of course. Would you actually say that the U.S. was not justified in entering WWII and stopping Hitler?
That’s not to say THIS current war is justified. That is a different discussion.

Point being … of the life issues, two of them CAN be justified depending on the circumstance (death penalty, war).
However, there is absolutely no circumstance warranting the justification of the other two (abortion, euthanasia).
The difference in the line between these is possible justification of the action.

As RobertLGarrett mentioned before, the innocence of the victim must be part of the discussion.
In euthanasia, the victim may or may not be a willing participant in the action and may not be completely innocent.
In abortion, the victim is always an unwilling, completely innocent party.

Yes … abortion kills over 1 million per year in the U.S. alone.
This is a gargantuan number compared to the possible tens of thousands over several years in Iraq.

However, the count doesn’t really matter.
Even if the numbers were reversed, abortion is still a bigger evil… because of the complete innocence of the victim.

michel
 
I didn’t read all the other posts so if I am repeating someone Im sorry. But abortion is taking a life and knowing that you intend to do it. The war is trying to save inocent People who need our help.

The war is actually not to continue killing it is to somehow someway make peace. and end killing!

Is the war right or wrong? War and killing is never right, but sometimes just necessary.
 
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