Can someone who rejects the Gospel be saved?

[Ammi]

That has nothing to do with what I’ve said.

Prayers from others can never forgive mortal sins. This practice MUST mean in the hope they are in Purgatory.

 

[PetraG]

This is true but our prayer is that prior to death God granted them final repentance somehow. From what I understand in this instance one would have that desire to be forgiven of their mortal sin but not have the opportunity to go to confession.

The Sacrament of Penance is the ordinary means of the graces of repentance, so of course we’d hope for that first. That is why Our Lord instituted the Sacrament.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The Sacrament of Penance is the ordinary means of the graces of repentance, so of course we’d hope for that first. That is why Our Lord instituted the Sacrament.

Yes, someone praying for forgiveness of mortal sin would need to attend the Sacrament of Penance as soon as they can, if they can, in order to have that mortal sin forgiven.

 

[Ammi]

I agree, and think you agree with me… that intercessory prayers cannot forgive mortal sins.

 

[PetraG]

I agree, and think you agree with me… that intercessory prayers cannot forgive mortal sins.

I think we all agree that no one is beyond the power of God to provide salutory repentance, such that the Church rightly tells us to pray for the dead regardless of the circumstances we think we know surrounded their death. We do not have to concern ourselves with judging whether someone who has died is worth praying for or not, for instance. We do want to teach people that since we have been given ordinary ways to approach God for forgiveness we should never presume that we will be given infinite opportunities or extraordinary means other than the Sacrament of Penance. That might happen, but we can’t know that. We can know that the Sacrament of Penance is a reliable avenue.

 

[Pai_Nosso]

No, that’s not true. If it were, then the standard would be “hearing”, and that’s not what the Church teaches.

Well I was right about the misunderstanding being about the definition of “ignorant”.
I understand how your interpreting “ignorant” but your claim that people who don’t believe the gospel can get saved is also not what the church teaches.

Mark 16:15-16
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned…"

What part of this piece of scripture do you not understand Ammi?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I agree, and think you agree with me… that intercessory prayers cannot forgive mortal sins.

Yes I agree. We can pray that God granted someone repentance before they died but the Church teaches that the Sacrament of Penance is needed for the forgiveness of mortal sin.

 

[Gorgias]

This is the last time I will say this to you.

That’s probably fair, since it’s of limited benefit to continue to have to remind you that your personal interpretation of Scripture doesn’t trump the teachings of the Church.

In post 56, i demonstrated how that theory is contradicted in Scripture and the NAB-RE footnote.

So, a personal interpretation of Scripture, and a non-authoritative footnote are the best you’ve got? I’ll stick with the teachings of the Fathers of Vatican II, then, thank you.

your claim that people who don’t believe the gospel can get saved is also not what the church teaches.

Again, please read Lumen gentium. The Church Fathers of Vatican II disagree with you. And they’re the “Church” who teaches.

We can pray that God granted someone repentance before they died but the Church teaches that the Sacrament of Penance is needed for the forgiveness of mortal sin.

Umm… now we’re in the business of judging whether grave sin is ‘mortal’ or ‘venial’? I thought only God could do that.

 

[Nikolaite]

Umm… now we’re in the business of judging whether grave sin is ‘mortal’ or ‘venial’? I thought only God could do that.

Nope, not only God. Also, the penitent preparing his confession can judge whether his sins of grave matter were committed with full knowledge and consent of the will…and therefore mortal.

 

[Gorgias]

Also, the penitent preparing his confession can judge whether his sins of grave matter were committed with full knowledge and consent of the will…and therefore mortal.

Nope. He can’t. St Paul says as much – he can’t judge the state of his own soul. Neither can we. All we can do is go to confession, and then walk away knowing that, regardless whether the sin was venial or mortal, it is now forgiven.

 

[Pai_Nosso]

Again, please read Lumen gentium. The Church Fathers of Vatican II disagree with you. And they’re the “Church” who teaches

Ok I did as u asked and found no such teaching. Only the teaching which I know which is “salvation outside of the church is possible.”

1	Contents
1.1	Chapter 1: The Mystery of the Church (1-8)
1.2	Chapter 2: On The People of God (9-17)
1.2.1	Church is the people of God
1.2.2	Common and ministerial priesthoods
1.2.3	Possibility of salvation outside the Church
1.2.4	New Evangelization
1.3	Chapter 3: The Hierarchical Structure of the Church and In Particular on the Episcopate (18-29)
1.4	Chapter 4: The Laity (30-38)
1.5	Chapter 5: The Universal Call to Holiness in the Church (39-42)
1.6	Chapter 6: The Religious (43-47)
1.7	Chapter 7: The Eschatological Nature of the Pilgrim Church and Its Union with the Church in Heaven (48-51)
1.8	Chapter 8: The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, in the Mystery of Christ and the Church (52-69)

And so again I will quote the word…
Mark 16:15-16
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does NOT BELIEVE will be condemned …"

 

[Gorgias]

Ok I did as u asked and found no such teaching.

That’s one whale of a quick read!

(Check out the citations that I already quoted, upthread. You’ll find them there. )

 

[Nikolaite]

Nikolaite:

Also, the penitent preparing his confession can judge whether his sins of grave matter were committed with full knowledge and consent of the will…and therefore mortal.

Nope. He can’t. St Paul says as much – he can’t judge the state of his own soul. Neither can we. All we can do is go to confession, and then walk away knowing that, regardless whether the sin was venial or mortal, it is now forgiven.

Judging one’s self acquitted and being conscious of mortal sin are two TOTALLY different terms with different meanings.

The Council of Trent teaches us in its 14th Session:

Whence it is gathered that all the mortal sins, of which, after a diligent examination of themselves, they are conscious, must needs be by penitents enumerated in confession, even though those sins be most hidden, and committed only against the two last precepts of the decalogue,–sins which sometimes wound the soul more grievously, and are more dangerous, than those which are committed outwardly. For venial sins, whereby we are not excluded from the grace of God, and into which we fall more frequently, although they be rightly and profitably, and without any presumption declared in confession, as the custom of pious persons demonstrates, yet may they be omitted without guilt, and be expiated by many other remedies. But, whereas all mortal sins, even those of thought, render men children of wrath, and enemies of God, it is necessary to seek also for the pardon of them all from God, with an open and modest confession.

and also reminds us:

CANON VII.–If any one saith, that, in the sacrament of Penance, it is not necessary, of divine right, for the remission of sins, to confess all and singular the mortal sins which after due and diligent previous meditation are remembered, even those (mortal sins) which are secret, and those which are opposed to the two last commandments of the Decalogue, as also the circumstances which change the species of a sin; but (saith) that such confession is only useful to instruct and console the penitent, and that it was of old only observed in order to impose a canonical satisfaction; or saith that they, who strive to confess all their sins, wish to leave nothing to the divine mercy to pardon ; or, finally, that it is not lawful to confess venial sins ; let him be anathema.

CANON VIII.–If any one saith, that the confession of all sins, such as it is observed in the Church, is impossible, and is a human tradition to be abolished by the godly; or that all and each of the faithful of Christ, of either sex, are not obliged thereunto once a year, conformably to the constitution of the great Council of Lateran, and that, for this cause, the faithful of Christ are to be persuaded not to confess during Lent; let him be anathema.

It is a direct inference: if you can’t judge yourself in mortal sin, you can’t confess your mortal sins in kind and number…

 

[Gorgias]

Judging one’s self acquitted and being conscious of mortal sin are two TOTALLY different terms with different meanings.

And yet, St Paul asserted that he was unable to discern whether he was in mortal sin. Maybe we’ve gotten smarter than Apostles since then…

It is a direct inference: if you can’t judge yourself in mortal sin, you can’t confess your mortal sins in kind and number…

I would assert that this is merely a lack of recognition that we’re quibbling over different usages of terms. Take a look at the catechism:

[1446] Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as “the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace.”

So… what is it that we must confess, according to the CCC, because it causes us to fall out of a state of grace? “Grave sin.” So, you’ve got a choice: either you claim that the CCC is in error and in conflict with Trent, or you recognize that they are two ways of describing the same concept. So… are we able to be conscious of an objective reality (i.e., having committed a grave sin)? Yep. Does that mean that we can be conscious of judging our own self subjectively? St Paul says “no.”

 

[Pai_Nosso]

That’s one whale of a quick read!
(Check out the citations that I already quoted, upthread. You’ll find them there.

Thanks. I have found the parts where you have interpreted that the rejection and/or non belief in the gospel will not prevent salvation. I would say that is your own interpretation which has a high probability of being incorrect.

Therefore refer to scripture and the teaching of Jesus himself…
Mark 16:15-16
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does NOT BELIEVE will be condemned …"
This is the word of God. Ignore it at you own peril.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Umm… now we’re in the business of judging whether grave sin is ‘mortal’ or ‘venial’? I thought only God could do that.

Umm, no. We can know when we are in a state of mortal sin.

We are instructed to examine our conscience every night. We know there are three conditions required for a sin to be mortal. We are also told by the Church to confess all mortal sins in confession and not to take communion if we are in a state of mortal sin.

Why would we be told all this if we cant know if a sin is mortal?

As a matter of fact you quoted proof of knowing if we are in mortal sin, or not being in a state of grace here:

1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his
Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace

Loss of grace or not being in a state of grace. In other words being in mortal sin.

 

[Gorgias]

I would say that is your own interpretation of it which has a high probability of being incorrect.

That’s your right to do. Not that it’s convincing, but you can certainly make that kind of claim. Just realize that this is how the text of LG is understood.

This is the word of God. Ignore it at you own peril.

Think hard for a moment before you assert this personal interpretation of Scripture. The gospel was proclaimed to Saul; he did not believe. Was he condemned? (After all, he only turned to the faith after he encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus, not when he heard the gospel preached.)

 

[Gorgias]

Umm, no. We can know when we are in a state of mortal sin.

Not by default. That requires a well-formed conscience, and even so, it doesn’t guarantee that we can accurately assess the state of our own soul. It’s still possible to deceive oneself.

St Paul writes: “It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I do not even pass judgment on myself; I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgment.” (1 Cor 4:3-5)

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The gospel was proclaimed to Saul; he did not believe. Was he condemned? (After all, he only turned to the faith after he encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus, not when he heard the gospel preached.)

While it is true Paul did not accept the gospel and convert right away, he still did before he died, which kept him from being condemned.

 

[Ammi]

St Paul did examine himself properly.

Yet he was humble enough to acknowledge Kesus was his righteous judge.