Can We All Agree We Are One

[wisdomseeker]

**Quote:
I pray and study. It’s not thru my personal interpreation but as I feel led by the HS after such prayer and study. **

is it not what the other 33,000 plus body of believers do also? yet, they all say that Scriptures is telling them different things.

the reason for this is that Jesus already revealed the Truth to His Church and your prayers is to no avail. you all have inherited the rebellious ideas of martin luther without bothering to seek for the Truth, instead you have just accepted what the rebellious one said.

 

[Della]

joe370, here are a few references from the CCC I think would be helpful to you in understanding what the Church claims about itself regarding it’s infallibility in teaching and other important matters, it’s all based in the simple word: subsists. The Church has never claimed it knows everything about God, rather it claims it was commissioned by Christ to teach what he gave to the Apostles. They are not infallible as men, but the Holy Spirit is, and it is the Holy Spirit who ensures the Church stays faithful to the teachings of Christ.

 

[CMatt25]

Since some of you believe the Matt 16 church is the RCC and as such also accept what men have said, I guess my original question has been answered. Christ is not enough in some circles. But as Joe said, it is just his opinion too. Until He comes again… Peace to all His people on earth. God bless!

 

[joe370]

Hi Matt, maybe I am wrong about the CC. Help me find the church of Matthew 16, in the world today, that existed in the 1st century, that is forever guided by the Holy spirit into all truth as opposed to some doctrinal truths or partial doctrinal truths? This is the church that has the final authority to arbitrate and evaluate in the face of doctrinal division/disparity/disunity? I am being sincere. If the CC is not the church of Matthew 16 then I most definitely want to find that church as opposed to churches founded by men! I mean, Jesus said, I will build my church not churches - right? If Jesus did not establish the CC then who did? I can give you the name of the man that founded each and every Protestant church, and his name is not Jesus Christ and all of these churches were established 1600 years after Pentecost, at best. I ask with the utmost respect and sincerity.

Are you saying that the CC believes that Christ is not enough, and that they rely on pastors as opposed to Jesus, or have I misread that? Every protestant church is comprised of pastors preaching and teaching from their pulpits and people listen and learn from them as opposed to Jesus Christ; is Christ not enough for these Protestant churches? Jesus is no longer here to preach and teach. He entrusted to His established church the mission of preaching and teaching in His stead. If the CC is not the church entrusted with this mission than who; which church?

 

[CMatt25]

Joe, you can find Christ in different churches. If Christ needed to reform the RCC, He reformed it. If the RCC didn’t need reformed at all, then Prots may be wrong. If the RCC did go astray from the Church Christ built upon faith, and needs reformed to prevent the gates from prevailing, then Caths are wrong. But whatever you believe and more importantly wherever you find Him, great! Where 2 are gathered in His name…

Peace my friend and God bless.

 

[joe370]

Joe, you can find Christ in different churches. If Christ needed to reform the RCC, He reformed it. If the RCC didn’t need reformed at all, then Prots may be wrong. If the RCC did go astray from the Church Christ built upon faith, and needs reformed to prevent the gates from prevailing, then Caths are wrong. But whatever you believe and more importantly wherever you find Him, great! Where 2 are gathered in His name…

Peace my friend and God bless.

So it does not matter which church we belong to; is that what you are saying? Doctrinal truth is unimportant, and all that matters is that we are united as one because we all have faith that Jesus is our one and only savior? In other words, it’s OK to compromise on doctrinal truth for the sake of unity, ignoring the differences (doctrinally speaking) - that set us apart, again in the name of unity? If that is what you believe then I totally respect your decision.

This is exactly what my sister believes. She belongs to a church established in 1987. They reject baptism as being unnecessary as well as the true presence in the Eucharist, even though Jesus Himself said that these 2 things were absolutely necessary for salvation. If they don’t matter then why did Jesus say that they do matter. Is it OK to compromise on doctrinal truth, with her church leaders, for the sake of unity?

Peace brother…

 

[joe370]

joe370, here are a few references from the CCC I think would be helpful to you in understanding what the Church claims about itself regarding it’s infallibility in teaching and other important matters, it’s all based in the simple word: subsists

. The Church has never claimed it knows everything about God, rather it claims it was commissioned by Christ to teach what he gave to the Apostles. They are not infallible as men, but the Holy Spirit is, and it is the Holy Spirit who ensures the Church stays faithful to the teachings of Christ.

CCC 813, I believe. Della, I totally agree with you; well said. I get so tired of Protestants claiming that the CC claims that their leaders are infallible. So silly! Not one person on this plant is infallible except for me of course. LOL…

 

[wisdomseeker]

Joe, you can find Christ in different churches. If Christ needed to reform the RCC, He reformed it. If the RCC didn’t need reformed at all, then Prots may be wrong. If the RCC did go astray from the Church Christ built upon faith, and needs reformed to prevent the gates from prevailing, then Caths are wrong. But whatever you believe and more importantly wherever you find Him, great! Where 2 are gathered in His name…

Peace my friend and God bless.

All that Jesus tought was important. i hope you know this.
the Pharisees believed in God, but apparently wasnt good enough to Jesus. was it?
you fail to realize that the Truth does not contradict. it is not based on opinions of man.

Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

So it does not matter which church we belong to; is that what you are saying? Doctrinal truth is unimportant, and all that matters is that we are united as one because we all have faith that Jesus is our one and only savior? In other words, it’s OK to compromise on doctrinal truth for the sake of unity, ignoring the differences (doctrinally speaking) - that set us apart, again in the name of unity? If that is what you believe then I totally respect your decision.

This is exactly what my sister believes. She belongs to a church established in 1987. They reject baptism as being unnecessary as well as the true presence in the Eucharist, even though Jesus Himself said that these 2 things were absolutely necessary for salvation. If they don’t matter then why did Jesus say that they do matter. Is it OK to compromise on doctrinal truth, with her church leaders, for the sake of unity?

Peace brother…

Joe, perhaps your sister believes Matt 3:11 is saying baptism with water does not take precedence over baptism with the Holy Spirit? Or because the thief was saved there may be an exception? Maybe she reasons Christ had not died yet at the Last Supper? Maybe she believes everythng in the Bible is not literal. That eat my body and discern meant believe in me and in what I did for you? That Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father and His physical body will return when he comes again? Maybe she believes Christ was not about rules and rituals?

But whatever she believes is her faith. Just has you and I have our faith. All 3 a faith in Christ. Peace to you as well my friend and to your sister in Christ.

 

[CMatt25]

All that Jesus tought was important. i hope you know this.
the Pharisees believed in God, but apparently wasnt good enough to Jesus. was it?
you fail to realize that the Truth does not contradict. it is not based on opinions of man.

Peace.

Of course I know this. Fallble men are all we have though. I don’t presume I have it all exactly correct. I don’t necessarily presume anyone does. So what you call “truth” I probably call faith. Peace be with you as well my friend in Christ.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Of course I know this. Fallble men are all we have though. I don’t presume I have it all exactly correct. I don’t necessarily presume anyone does. So what you call “truth” I probably call faith. Peace be with you as well my friend in Christ.

of course not. you seemed a little confuse. you call yourself Catholic yet you are here against the Church which you profess to believe.

what is up with that?

you dont have to believe in no one. what you have to believe is what our Lord has said. everything He has said. now, i ask you do you know all He said, when He said to the Apostles:" go and teach all that i have tought you." do you quite understand this?

 

[teresa_mrg]

I recently read these words by a Protestant pastor and his words rang so true…

The One who brings us together is far more important than whatever differences set us apart.

We are one in Christ.

“For He is our peace, He who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh” (Eph 2:14)

if only everyone thinks the same… this world will be much more peaceful!

 

[teresa_mrg]

i used to hear a wise Protestant pastor say this as well…

“What we need to hold on is Jesus Himself. Religions are only labels made by human.”

 

[CMatt25]

of course not. you seemed a little confuse. you call yourself Catholic yet you are here against the Church which you profess to believe.

what is up with that?

you dont have to believe in no one. what you have to believe is what our Lord has said. everything He has said. now, i ask you do you know all He said, when He said to the Apostles:" go and teach all that i have tought you." do you quite understand this?

Yes, Wisdom, I am a member of the Catholic Church. I don’t think when He said it The Catholic Church was in the vocabulary but I understand Christ said to go and teach. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

i used to hear a wise Protestant pastor say this as well…

“What we need to hold on is Jesus Himself. Religions are only labels made by human.”

teresa, Jesus is something both Catholics and Protestants have but I think sometimes myself included, we get so dug in that we sometimes forget there is far more we agree on than we differ on. Nice post. Thank you.

 

[Della]

i used to hear a wise Protestant pastor say this as well…

“What we need to hold on is Jesus Himself. Religions are only labels made by human.”

I can’t agree this pastor was wise in what he said. He was promoting relativism, whether he knew it or not.

Christ was very definite about what he came to do. He never said we can all just do our own thing just so long as we believed in him. He never called religion a dirty word.

Christ founded the Church. He obviously wanted it to have structure and a hierarchy because that’s how he set it up. He promised the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit and that his Church would triumph over the very gates of hell. How does that constitute “do your own thing as long as you believe in Jesus”?

All this is right there in the Bible for all to read. Anyone who denies it is teaching heresy. I say this in all kindness, without a hint of snideness, simply because it’s true.

It is neither wise nor loving to tell people what is not true. It is the truth that sets us free, not wishful thinking.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yes, Wisdom, I am a member of the Catholic Church. I don’t think when He said it The Catholic Church was in the vocabulary but I understand Christ said to go and teach. Peace.

did He say to the world, go and preach, or He chose a people to do this?

"For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."
1Corinthians 11:18-19
.

 

[CMatt25]

did He say to the world, go and preach, or He chose a people to do this?

"For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."
1Corinthians 11:18-19
.

Yes he chose His disciples. The disciples had their differences. The 1Cor verses you continue to post were commented on by another poster on another thread. But to recap it, if the RCC is the truth then there are weeds in it. You might judge me weed. But Jn14:6 says the truth is Christ. Now I know you make the presumption only the Catholic Church has Christ. So we will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[Della]

Yes he chose His disciples. The disciples had their differences. The 1Cor verses you continue to post were commented on by another poster on another thread. But to recap it, if the RCC is the truth then there are weeds in it. You might judge me weed. But Jn14:6 says the truth is Christ. Now I know you make the presumption only the Catholic Church has Christ. So we will simply have to agree to disagree.

Two things I think you are misunderstanding here. Firstly, of course there are weeds in the Church. The fact that it has a flawed human side ensures that it does. However, the Church isn’t just human, it is also divine because it is the Body of Christ.

Let me put it this way, when Paul persecuted the Christians and was on his way to Damascus to do more of the same, Christ appeared to him and asked him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” Christ didn’t say, “Why do you persecute my flawed human followers”, but “me.” He identified himself completely with his Church.

Naturally, those who claim Christ and are following him to the best of their abilities according to what they know (or rather think they know) have Christ. But, they do not have the fullness of Christ. Many of them do quite a lot with what they have, so much so they often put Catholics to shame, however, the Church has the fullness of Christ in its teachings, sacraments, and spirituality. And no one could ask for more than that.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

We are not “fully” one in Christ. Paul told the Philippians “complete my joy by being of the same mind, have the same love, being in full accord and of one mind”

Let’s remember that the “circumcision party” or the Judaizers also believe in Christ. Did Paul say to them “let’s all agree that we are one in Christ?”. No he did not. He told the Galatians “there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ…if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be anathema”

The Council of Jerusalem had to be called to settle the issue. The Council of Trent was also called to settle the issue. Of course we have many things in common with our protestant brothers but many serious issues remain. We need to dialogue with them and bring them back so that there will be “one Lord, one faith and one baptism”. so that there will be “one fold and one shepherd”. We cannot shy away from the truth. Christ established a visible Church so that “we may no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine”

By “dialogue”, don’t you mean “convert”?