Can we be intellectually honest and believe in the freedom of man?

[BlueMaxx]

The science lies within the thumbprint of God, who created our minds and body and soul, that is us…and faith…trust and faith.

The same way, if you are a believer in Catholicism, that we believe He was tortured, physically died and then arose from the dead. The same way we believe in the truth of transubstantiation…these are subjects far more miraculous than the uncertainty of free will.

For it was you who formed my inward parts;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
that I know very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes beheld my unformed substance.
In your book were written
all the days that were formed for me,
when none of them as yet existed.
17 How weighty to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 I try to count them—they are more than the sand;
I come to the end —I am still with you.

 

[EndTimes]

I’m studied in Both Sciences and Jesus…

There’s no problems… no Either/Or Division…

For Starters and As it is, the Catholic Church’s Pontifical Academy of Sciences is represented by a large number of Senior Scientists from around the world

 

[Kullervo]

So how does this work in reality. Do we have a soul that controls the ‘human machine’? Isn’t this disproven by neuroscience? We know today that the brain fulfills some of the actions attributed in the past to the soul (like thinking), but it can’t have free will (only the soul can because it is supernatural as you have said).

 

[SPBlitz]

The Ghost in the machine is true of Cartesian dualism, but not of hylomorphic dualism, where the ‘soul’ is a compound of matter and form.

Just curious - how has neuroscience disproven the soul?

 

[Kullervo]

I’m not saying it disproves the soul. I just don’t understand the relation between the soul and the body and how it fits things that we know through science.

 

[Magnanimity]

I am becoming more and more convinced that believing in free will isn’t intellectually honest. That would mean that there is a contradiction between faith and reason

Such a complex question!! One could come at it from many separate angles. Let me try one in particular. As with most any complex issue like this, we must go back, before we can move forward. The Modern Era in the Western world brought about all kinds of mini-revolutions (in art, in philosophy, in theology and, of course, there was a scientific revolution). I would argue that a by-product of all of these mini-revolutions in the West was an overemphasis on humans as (mostly independent) individuals. The Modern Era ushered in a hyper-individualism. So, in considerations of human freedom, we always couch our questions in terms of ‘is person X free to choose Y or not-Y’ given a particularized context. We ask whether Joe Schmoe is free, rather than asking whether the race (the human race) is free. Hyper-emphasis on the individual…

If this is coupled with the decline of medieval formal and final causes (as it was), then we are left with only material and efficient causation. In an effort to reorient thinking away from this paltry Modern perspective, I think a quote from DB Hart is in order.

”A higher understanding of human freedom, however, is inseparable from a definition of human nature. To be free is to be able to flourish as the kind of being one is, and so to attain the ontological good toward which one’s nature is oriented; freedom is the unhindered realization of a complex nature in its proper end (natural and supernatural), and this is consummate liberty and happiness.”

 

[Kullervo]

I’m not sure I follow.
We are most free when we are most human. We are created in the image of God. So, we should live like this image of God should live.

This doesn’t really answer my question, I think. I asked, how can we bring into Harmony faith and reason in this particular case of free will.

 

[Magnanimity]

This doesn’t really answer my question, I think. I asked, how can we bring into Harmony faith and reason in this particular case of free will.

Fair enough. The point I’m making requires some background understanding of what was lost in the intellectual world in the transition out of the Middle Ages into Modernity. I named two types of causation that were almost entirely dispensed with early on (they certainly have no place within the contemporary scientific framework)—formal and final causes.

So, a formal cause is that which makes a particular substance the kind of thing it is (a human or a bottle or a rock) including a consideration of the attributes that seem proper to the substance in consideration (is the substance hard or soft, liquid or solid, cold or hot…?) And a final cause is the ultimate end or purpose of a thing—that for the sake of which it exists. These are two of Aristotle’s basic causes that he believes can be asked of whatever occurs in all of nature and which were adopted by great medieval thinkers of the church (e.g., St Thomas Aquinas).

But, why do I say all this? It’s just to say that for your purposes you are attempting to square what you believe the church teaches about free will (“faith”) and what you’re referring to as “reason” here, which is presumably the contemporary scientific community. But the contemporary scientific community only uses two of Aristotle’s causal explanations for the world—material causality and efficient causality.

IMHO, you will only get at some sort of resolution to this dilemma by going back to the wisdom of the ancients and medievals—the formal and final causes of a human being must be considered. What is it that makes a human distinct from a rock a dolphin and a flower? What is it about the substance of man that distinguishes it from other beings (formal cause)? And, for what purpose do humans exist? What is their end? What is it they are tending toward?

Unless/until you recover these lost causes (ba-dum-chee), I don’t see how it’s possible to answer your questions. The contemporary scientific community (for whatever its goods) is not the sole (or even primary!) repository of “reason.” You’ve got to get beyond it.

 

[FrancisFan43]

You should consult your priest about it and see what he says.

 

[TK421]

So how does this work in reality. Do we have a soul that controls the ‘human machine’? Isn’t this disproven by neuroscience? We know today that the brain fulfills some of the actions attributed in the past to the soul (like thinking), but it can’t have free will (only the soul can because it is supernatural as you have said).

Honestly, I don’t know. But I definitely think studying human anatomy to find “free will” is a dead end. The body exists in the physical universe so you’re just going to find chemical processes and whatnot the same as any animal or plant. Still, there is a ton we don’t know and the more we learn the more questions we seem to have. The brain is ridiculously intricate.

When mystics like St Padre Pio had miraculous insights about the state of people’s souls, their lives, and their secrets, as well as some knowledge about purgatory or Heaven or hell, it was like he had this awesome intuition, as if knowing these things came as simply and naturally as seeing or breathing. So the soul transcends everything we know or could ever study.

 

[Latin]

how can we bring into Harmony faith and reason in this particular case of free will.

To answer this question first we have to know some related teachings from Catholic theology as follows:

God Designed, Decreed, Predestined and Orders/ Causes every event that happen or will happen in the universe.

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects, God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.”
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, … “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
.
As we see above, we are God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.

We are working on to complete God’s creation, God aides/ causes every our decisions we make and He aides/ causes every our acts we perform.
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2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, ( De fide ).

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As CCC 307, 2022 and the above De fide dogma explains, we don’t even have to know we are cooperating with God’s graces, because God aides/ causes our FREE WILING and our FREE ACTING.
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We have an aided/ caused free will, if we would have a libertarian free will, instead of working on to complete God’s Creation, we would working on to build the Tower of Babel.
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God bless

 

[Latin]

So how does this work in reality. Do we have a soul that controls the ‘human machine’?

In reality God controls the ‘human machine.’
.
The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza.

Page 84. "St. Thomas properly explains the chain of causality:

"It is to be observed that where there are several agents in order, the second always acts in virtue of the first: for the agent moves the second to act.

And thus all agents act in virtue of God Himself: and therefore He is the cause of action in every agent. ST, Pt I, Q 105, Art 5.

Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination to do good comes from God.”

.
St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:

St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

.
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.
.
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good . . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.

.
As long as we live in this side of eternity, our intellect/ mind is a CORRUPTED agent and without God’s aides our mind is useful only for lying and to commit acts of sins.

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.

.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
.
As we see above, there are two agents God and still our corrupted intellect/ mind.

But only One Agent runs the show, God Almighty the Supreme Ruler of the Universe.

His wisdom He so Designed, Decreed, Predestined and Orders/ Causes EVERY event within the universe, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Every event means:
“Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause”. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
.
God bless

 

[Kullervo]

In reality God controls the ‘human machine.’
.

So, God is the behind everything, but we have free will in the way that God moves things how our souls would like to. The material world is Gods creation and a manifestation of what our souls choose and God makes it real.

I’m way too undereducated to understand what I’m talking about, but this makes sense to me. It kind of reminds me of ‘The music of the Ainur’ (Music of the Ainur - Tolkien Gateway) from the works of J. R. R. Tolkien. He was a faithful Catholic and there are many Catholic themes in his work. I think maybe this has inspired him (?).

 

[tafan2]

Does not most of these studies only end up showing there is more brain activity before we are conscious of a decision?
If so, I fail to see how they shed any light on the issue of free will at all. Only that the brain has to work harder during the time of leading up to a decision than the decision itself.
From a pyely scientific standpoint, what am I missing?

 

[Latin]

So, God is the behind everything, but we have free will in the way that God moves things how our souls would like to. The material world is Gods creation and a manifestation of what our souls choose and God makes it real.

God’s will is the cause of all things.

He declares, “I have purposed it; I will also do it” (Isa. 46:11); and Paul states that God “works all things according to the counsel of His will” (Eph. 1:11), not the council of our wills.

At the end, God makes our wills and desire in line with His desire and with His Divine Will.

Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.

There is no reference point outside of God that guides Him or places necessity upon Him; His will is normative and absolute—He is free.
.
History is not just what He sees will be, but is what He causes to be , especially in every aspect of the redemptive process.

God’s Will determines all things man can never negate God’s determination .

God’s Decretive Will is God’s determination of what will be, assuring that His plan for man will come to pass.
.
In doing this man is accepting his lot in life and accepting what comes his way, knowing that it is coming from the heavenly Father who loves and does what is best for us .

.
What we deem evil is part of a larger good.

Evil is neither a problem nor dilemma for God, but is one of the instruments whereby He accomplishes His will.
.
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin.

Evil in some fashion fulfills the ultimate purpose of God.
Augustine: “God judged it better to bring good out of evil, than to suffer no evil to exist” ( Enchiridion , xxvii).
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311 For almighty God, . . . because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself. 177
.
324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

God is the Creator of all things; He created everything from nothing; and He sustains what He has created—all things are contingent and dependent upon Him.

All that exists is because of Him, either directly created by Him or arising within or from that which He created.
.
Note that the volition is not referred to in terms of freedom, such as an autonomous freedom; if there is God, who is also Sovereign, then a so-called autonomous freedom is a false concept; it simply cannot be; this is to affirm that nothing, animate and inanimate, operates independently of God ; volition simply refers to man’s ability to act by the provisions of His graces.
.
God bless

 

[Kullervo]

So, the idea of libertarian free will is false and we are just gears in the world created and sustained by God journeying to it’s fulfilment at the end of time?

 

[EndTimes]

"God’s will is the cause of all things… Etc… " ?

Illogical fallacious circular argument…

God’s Will is the Only Will Because God’s Will is the Only Will ?

Denies the overwhelming domain of evidences throughout History,
OF the self-evident independent from God (thus "free?) will of Humans -
Whom when giving Adam & Eve a Choice? Is all one needs to know…

Evil? Results from any beings - angels or humans whom DisObey God…

 

[Latin]

Whom when giving Adam & Eve a Choice? Is all one needs to know…

.
Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin .

.
The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza explains;

Page 77; “Sufficient grace remains an interior impulse, whereas an efficacious grace produces an exterior act.

With efficacious grace, man is able to resist the grace but does not, because the grace causes him to freely choose the good.

This means that when God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g. prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace ) that infallibly produces the end ( the act willed by God ).

Sufficient grace gives man the potency to do good, but efficacious grace is required to move him from potency to act.

Therefore, sufficient grace is insufficient to move him to act, the power remains in potency and is never actualized.

If God wills to permit a person to resist His grace, He grants him a sufficient, and not an efficacious, grace.

FOR EXAMPLE
Page 113: However, the Church teaches that God infused Adam with sufficient grace to resist temptation and to perform his duties with charity.
God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.” – His wisdom He so ordered the events of his sin, which He decreed form all eternity.

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.”

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
.
As we see above, God does not only wills sin, but He decreed and created in this world the dramas of evil and sin and this is what HE CREATED at His CAUSE of the “fall,” for the benefit of the entire human race.
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God bless

 

[EndTimes]

“God does not only wills sin, but He decreed and created in this world the dramas of evil and sin and this is what HE CREATED at His CAUSE of the “fall,” for the benefit of the entire human race.” ?

Nope. Few here buy into that Falsity… Nothing you can post disproves Man’s Free Will.

_

 

[blueonion]

Well, this is my first time to post here. I saw the topic… and it is interesting and relates very well with the action i’m doing now. I’m typing as i think about the topic. Not sure what to really say… Do I go scientific or tell something more abstract. But im tired… so i guess… ill just go to sleep because it’s already 4am. Don’t tell me im trolling Im just giving an example of my will to react freely to an interesting topic that alluded me. If you think you feel to reply to my post, It is your choice, if you wanted to pray first so you receive a better wisdom, it is your choice. Now if you feel hesitant, that’s because you are thinking if its worth it. Trust me if i wrote this in my native language… You wont be able to understand this even if you feel that you are per-destined to reply. Since you can understand this it means you can decide to reply. And if being able to comprehend is a factor to understanding then it means you can only react if you comprehend the meaning. Because, if free-will don’t exist… then there shouldn’t be a language barrier nor you having some interest to read this message. I don’t need to refute anyone if something really is very evident. Because if i CHOSE to refute anyone to prove myself i’ll be just making that someone more stupid by CHOOSING the words that would convince them