Can We Get Catholics to Sing? - Part Deux

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“Singing” at Mass is hardly a recent innovation. It traces back to the Apostolic age, and continues from Hebrew tradition.

There are biblical references, including:

[BIBLEDRB]Matt 26:30[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mark 14:26[/BIBLEDRB]
Yes, I was about to post this.

I am really curious as to what point people stopped singing in the Latin rite.

If any history buffs have any information, I’ll bake you a pie. 🙂

Although since I don’t bake, it won’t be a very good pie, but that’s just a small matter. 😃
 
If any history buffs have any information, I’ll bake you a pie. 🙂
Tempting offer!

FWIW - I recently stumbed upon a short white paper entitled Outline History of Liturgical Music [source: Canadian Catholic Historical Association]. The summary opens with the following sentence:
Music has been associated with Christian Worship since the very dawn of Christianity.
It goes on to trace the evolution of liturgical music in the Roman Catholic tradition. in brief.
 
If you want to sing, join the choir. It’s an annoyance when I hear a good singer down below and have a choir that struggles to sing! It’s also an annoyance to hear a lone bellowing voice below that seems to be singing the entrance hymn while everyone else has moved on to the offertory hymn. Plus, with everyone being told to sing no matter what (or we’ll hang you up by your thumbs!) I think a lot of people don’t see the point in moving up to the choir loft. All in all, a depressing state of affairs.
 
If you want to sing, join the choir. It’s an annoyance when I hear a good singer down below and have a choir that struggles to sing! It’s also an annoyance to hear a lone bellowing voice below that seems to be singing the entrance hymn while everyone else has moved on to the offertory hymn. Plus, with everyone being told to sing no matter what (or we’ll hang you up by your thumbs!) I think a lot of people don’t see the point in moving up to the choir loft. All in all, a depressing state of affairs.
Alas some good singers refuse to join the choirs at OF parishes simply because they hate the music. Join the choir and you are obliged to sing regardless if the song selection makes you weep. No thanks, I’ll stay in the pew where I can skip singing the dreck from OCP.
 
Alas some good singers refuse to join the choirs at OF parishes simply because they hate the music. Join the choir and you are obliged to sing regardless if the song selection makes you weep. No thanks, I’ll stay in the pew where I can skip singing the dreck from OCP.
I am entirely sympathetic to your tastes if you dislike OCP. There’s nothing I’d like more than building a bonfire fueled by the pages of OCPs hymnals. Toss in some GIA and WLP stuff in there and you’ll make my day. And yes, I didn’t think to mention that, but I agree with your point about why some people won’t join. Unfortunately, we MDs don’t always have a choice either because the pastor either WANTS that stuff, thinks that it will make more people sing (not true!), or is unwilling to spend money on real hymnals because it’s “too expensive” (not true in the long run).
 
I don’t think the poster was making a snide remark. And I have no intentions of picking on anyone as well. Unless my comment was misconstrued because I used the word ‘old’. I’m very much aware of what older women do for the Church.
:):)👍
 
What can I say? Some people just sing slow.
As those of us who have sang in choirs might have heard in those circles, it is popularly held that the “slow singers” are those who like to hear themselves most of all.

Boy, there was a missed opportunity for a Seinfeld episode (who of course did manage to pay homage to “low talkers” in the series).
 
I spoke to a couple of priests and both of them thought it was the influence of the Irish in American Catholicism and acknowledged that it wasn’t the same in other countries.
Those priests must have missed out on all those St. Paddy’s Day sing-a-longs.😃
The Irish, bashful about singing?🤷 Certainly not! 👍
Which gets us back to the right music for the right occasion and congregation. I’m dreaming of music simple enough that those who cannot note read can begin chiming in by verse 2, songs that will catechise those who sing (or those who are not ready to sing), and songs with ranges that seem achievable to the average person assisting at mass.
 
If you want to sing, join the choir. It’s an annoyance when I hear a good singer down below and have a choir that struggles to sing! It’s also an annoyance to hear a lone bellowing voice below that seems to be singing the entrance hymn while everyone else has moved on to the offertory hymn. Plus, with everyone being told to sing no matter what (or we’ll hang you up by your thumbs!) I think a lot of people don’t see the point in moving up to the choir loft. All in all, a depressing state of affairs.
I’m sure you know that people have good, legitimate reasons for not joining the choir.

My reason is that I work Sundays, usually every third weekend, but there are often changes to the schedule. This makes it difficult for the choir, as they never know when I am going to be there in the alto section.

I think a lot of people have work schedules that will not allow them to join the choir.

I play for our parish family Mass, which is held on Sunday mornings. But I only play for a few Masses a year, because of the work schedule. And at least once, there was a miscommunication, and I wasn’t there to play, and that was pretty awkward.

I think a lot of people don’t join the choir when they have young children to care for, and this makes both the practices and the Sunday mornings difficult. Yes, there is hopefully another spouse, but what if that spouse is not available?

There are “seasons” in our lives, and joining the choir happens during the “choir joining season” for most people.
 
Does it matter if we all sing? As far as I know this was never expected to be a requirement of Mass until relatively recently and it really doesn’t seem to be catching on. In fact the rush to get people to sing seems to have accomplished nothing but the radical debasement of the Church’s musical tradition.

It’s OK just to listen to music. Some of us have nerves. Some of us suck at singing. Etc.
**To begin with, always remember that the early Christian martyrs SANG together as they marched into the arena to meet their hideous death.

What did they know that we modern Christians apparently don’t get? **

I don’t think the “radical debasement of the Church’s musical tradition” occurred because Christians sing together. There’s a lot more to the story. I think the martyrs would not have sung if it were something “bad.”

If you truly can’t sing, or it hurts you to sing, that’s fine. I understand.

But for the rest–yes, it matters. For most of us, corporate singing occurs only in a church setting.

The only other time I can think of when people (not a choir) sing with each other is at a ball game during the National Anthem, and in case you haven’t been to a ball game recently, most people don’t sing along with the National Anthem, either. (Of course, supposedly the etiquette is that you’re NOT supposed to sing if a soloist is singing, which makes sense because many soloists try the Mariah Carey thing when they sing the Star Spangled Banner and this is really difficult to sing along with. You ARE supposed to sing the National Anthem when there is an instrumental–hence, people sang it at the Olympics whenever an American won Gold.)

Corporate singing is a way of bonding together with fellow Christians. So is prayer, listening to a homily, and of course, receiving Holy Communion. But singing is different than these other activities.

Singing is hard work. In each congregational hymn, the congregation has the opportunity to present an “offering of praise” to the Lord and a message of encouragement and courage to each other. This offering is not easy to offer–it’s like a choir number, only unrehearsed, and so the congregation has to work hard to make sure that they are singing their best, pronouncing the words, opening their mouths, maintaining a good singing posture, etc.

I maintain that there are very few acts in this life that bring as much sheer joy as singing with fellow Christians. Sex is the only other thing I can think of that is so wondrous and beautiful. Singing is kind of like sex, in that we have to trust each other to do it.

If you read the Little House books, you will see many examples of times when singing was the response to events both happy and sad. When Christians stop singing together, they often stop doing anything together.

Rmember that when you don’t sing, you deprive other Christians of the opportunity to be part of corporate singing. We can’t get this anywhere else. It’s not something we can do at home, because we don’t usually have a crowd of several hundred people and a nice piano or organ or guitar. We certainly can’t sing corporately at work. Yes, we can join a choir, but that’s REHEARSED corporate singing. The spontaneous singing of a joyful and thankful congregation is very different than singing a choir anthem that has been rehearsed for several weeks.

Have to go to work now.
 
**To begin with, always remember that the early Christian martyrs SANG together as they marched into the arena to meet their hideous death.

What did they know that we modern Christians apparently don’t get? **

I don’t think the “radical debasement of the Church’s musical tradition” occurred because Christians sing together. There’s a lot more to the story. I think the martyrs would not have sung if it were something “bad.”

If you truly can’t sing, or it hurts you to sing, that’s fine. I understand.

But for the rest–yes, it matters. For most of us, corporate singing occurs only in a church setting.

The only other time I can think of when people (not a choir) sing with each other is at a ball game during the National Anthem, and in case you haven’t been to a ball game recently, most people don’t sing along with the National Anthem, either. (Of course, supposedly the etiquette is that you’re NOT supposed to sing if a soloist is singing, which makes sense because many soloists try the Mariah Carey thing when they sing the Star Spangled Banner and this is really difficult to sing along with. You ARE supposed to sing the National Anthem when there is an instrumental–hence, people sang it at the Olympics whenever an American won Gold.)

Corporate singing is a way of bonding together with fellow Christians. So is prayer, listening to a homily, and of course, receiving Holy Communion. But singing is different than these other activities.

Singing is hard work. In each congregational hymn, the congregation has the opportunity to present an “offering of praise” to the Lord and a message of encouragement and courage to each other. This offering is not easy to offer–it’s like a choir number, only unrehearsed, and so the congregation has to work hard to make sure that they are singing their best, pronouncing the words, opening their mouths, maintaining a good singing posture, etc.

I maintain that there are very few acts in this life that bring as much sheer joy as singing with fellow Christians. Sex is the only other thing I can think of that is so wondrous and beautiful. Singing is kind of like sex, in that we have to trust each other to do it.

If you read the Little House books, you will see many examples of times when singing was the response to events both happy and sad. When Christians stop singing together, they often stop doing anything together.

Rmember that when you don’t sing, you deprive other Christians of the opportunity to be part of corporate singing. We can’t get this anywhere else. It’s not something we can do at home, because we don’t usually have a crowd of several hundred people and a nice piano or organ or guitar. We certainly can’t sing corporately at work. Yes, we can join a choir, but that’s REHEARSED corporate singing. The spontaneous singing of a joyful and thankful congregation is very different than singing a choir anthem that has been rehearsed for several weeks.

Have to go to work now.
👍
 
“Singing” at Mass is hardly a recent innovation.
I didn’t say singing at Mass was. I said the expectation that everybody sing at Mass was.

Personally, I like singing. But I don’t sing because I’m not good at it. Most people, I suspect, aren’t. And I’d much prefer to have silence than to listen to bad music, or rather music made bad by the participation of lots of people who have no business singing anything ever. 🙂
 
Those priests must have missed out on all those St. Paddy’s Day sing-a-longs.😃
The Irish, bashful about singing?🤷 Certainly not! 👍
True.😛

Seriously, though…it has been a while since I read it, but in the book, “Why Catholics Can’t Sing” by Thomas Day, I recall a section which talks about how many American Catholics tend to come from an Irish Catholic culture. Irish Catholics were persecuted for centuries, so they really did not build up a culture of even singing the mass as it had to be done in secret. Thus, mostly low masses without music. They did bring to the new world their folk songs and such, but singing at mass was foreign to them.

I’ll try to find a summary of the book and post here. I read it in college and thought it was excellent.
 
This review gave an overview of the book and then outlined the contents of the book. I forgot that Day had also provided a plan on reforming liturgical music and getting the people to also worship through the music. I wish I had my book to refer to, but I lent it to someone a few years and never got it back.

canticanova.com/catalog/products/book_why_catholics.htm

A couple quotes from the review:
Thomas Day understands the confusion of so many Catholics who long for a return to reverence in their worship. In Why Catholics Can’t Sing, he presents his views on what ails music in the Catholic liturgy. A trained musician who has worked for both Catholic and Protestant congregations, he offers remarkable insights into the musical tastes and styles prevalent within these traditions. He offers the interesting thesis that the initial cause of many ills in American Catholicism stems from the influence of the Irish immigrants who largely adhered to a “silent Mass” stemming from the long persecution of Catholicism in their homeland and associated rousing hymns with their Protestant oppressors. This was not the case on the European continent or Latin America but the Irish dominance made it a norm for the American Church. Even when the Mass was glorious and reverent in other respects, music was often treated as an afterthought. Only in the early stages of the liturgical renewal movement did music (particularly Gregorian Chant) begin to be taken seriously.
It is clear to any unbiased reader that Day is hardly a “pre-Vatican II” poster child. He clearly points out the problems predated this period — thus dispelling the notion this was at all related to Vatican II as many traditionalist Catholics would assert. The real issue is more a case of a poor understanding of the purpose of worship than one of conspiratorial intrigue.
The elitist tag also does not fit. Day argues against making the high culture works of the most significant composers the musical norm for liturgical music. Most parishes simply do not have the talent available to perform the masses of Mozart, et al. However, they are capable of learning chants and more basic hymns and liturgical music. These have been used successfully in many places and should be implemented far more widely. He is not railing against simpler music — just bad music.
 
True.😛

Seriously, though…it has been a while since I read it, but in the book, “Why Catholics Can’t Sing” by Thomas Day, I recall a section which talks about how many American Catholics tend to come from an Irish Catholic culture. Irish Catholics were persecuted for centuries, so they really did not build up a culture of even singing the mass as it had to be done in secret. Thus, mostly low masses without music. They did bring to the new world their folk songs and such, but singing at mass was foreign to them.

I’ll try to find a summary of the book and post here. I read it in college and thought it was excellent.
Makes sense to me.

I think Irish Catholicism does have kind of a bare-bones sense of the Mass. Not so for personal life and non-liturgical forms of piety.
 
I have vocal lessons and my teacher says I have a good voice, but my voice just doesn’t agree with Church music. I simply can’t sing it. This is because the parish I go to is full of old ladies who have created their own voice range that is far beyond soprano and it is difficult for me to keep my tenor one voice not to try and conform to their pitch. Plus, I am highly uncomfortable when singing in front of my family, and I sing relatively powerfully and loudly. I think not singing is a problem we have and we should fix it, but I also think perhaps converting some Protestants that can sing to lead the charge would be a sound plan. Josh Groban and Michael Buble, anyone?
Haha! I have the same problem. And my friend says I sound like Robert Goulet… I’d much prefer to be compared to Groban or Buble!
 
Makes sense to me.

I think Irish Catholicism does have kind of a bare-bones sense of the Mass. Not so for personal life and non-liturgical forms of piety.
Yes, you are right. I spent half my life attending mass at little farming parish in which almost all of the parishioners descended from Irish immigrants. The church has since been shut down about 2 years ago, even though it was a thriving parish.It was during a time where the former bishop was shutting down tons of parishes, but that’s for another thread.

What I remember most about that parish was how reverent and beautifully simple the masses were. They were almost untouched by a lot of the music you tended to hear in the suburban and city parishes back in the 80s and 90s. For many years, one of the farmers played the little organ in the loft. They never sang the psalm, although the priest would chant the Gospel acclamation. Simple, traditional hymns were sung. For this particular parish, though, the stereotype that Irish Catholics don’t sing was completely untrue. Mostly everyone sang in that little church. You’d always hear one or two voices who were stronger than the rest, but everyone sang. Even though I am a cantor, I do think that part of the reason was that they had no cantors and more importantly, no microphones. It was a small enough church where the priests and readers did not need mics. Another help was that the pastors we had encouraged singing. One of the pastors was a young bi-ritual Byzentine (I believe) and Latin rite and he got the parish to chant Latin parts of the mass as well as the chanted Salve Regina. I was completely floored to hear everyone sing them so well. He taught it to them little by little.
 
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