can we have a discussion with Muslims without getting angry

[guanophore]

Thanks buddy. But I prefer what I said. Let the Bible have its chance to prove the truth to me. Don’t worry my friend, many ones are replying my with their answers. If it is possible, Give it a try to find answers for those questions instead of argueing.

I had to find those answers prior to my own conversions. I do not wish to find them for you because I do not think you are interested in converting. If you were, you would find them yourself!

 

[guanophore]

Its up to you, how do you see questions. May be you can suggest me a way of asking.

Yes, it is up to the listener how the questions are perceived. I cannot suggest any way for you to ask questions at all here, since I think you are looking for ammunition to shoot down what you seem to perceive as an opposing belief system. You have already made up your mind what you believe, so why ask ANY questions?

 

[Khalfan]

I can show many chapters and verses that signify innovation in the major tenets of Islamic Scripture and thus implies later addition. (For instance, Ishmael’s filial affiliation with Abraham dates back to the late Mecca period!) Therefore, I have my reasons to presume some people added to the Koran the verse implying that it was Ishmael whom Abraham wanted to offer as a sacrifice.

As for evidence of verses added to the Koran at a later time, Nisa 176 is an excellent example:

004: 176 They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. Allah expoundeth unto you, so that ye err not. Allah is Knower of all things.

This verse must ensue verses 11-13 of the same chapter, which prescribe the law of inheritance. However, it was evidently detached from its place and later added to the surah in the last minute by an unknown editor.

More to the point, the linguistic structure of the Koran makes every sort of addition/deletion easier and more plausible than that of the Bible due to being comparatively poor in terms of thematic unity and coherence. It is always possible to tamper with jumbled verses than with well-developed chapters employing the same subject and following a chronological/logical order (unlike the present Koran).

Peace,
Angelos N.

Good suggestion. I will inform GOD about it, so that he will take care of it next time. May be I can ask for a special eddition for you.

My dear, I told you, until you don’t understand the backgroud of each verse, you won’t be able understand the deatils of any verse from Quran.

 

[Montalban]

My dear, I told you, until you don’t understand the backgroud of each verse, you won’t be able understand the deatils of any verse from Quran.

Hey, why not answer my posts?

 

[Khalfan]

I can show many chapters and verses that signify innovation in the major tenets of Islamic Scripture and thus implies later addition. (For instance, Ishmael’s filial affiliation with Abraham dates back to the late Mecca period!) Therefore, I have my reasons to presume some people added to the Koran the verse implying that it was Ishmael whom Abraham wanted to offer as a sacrifice.

As for evidence of verses added to the Koran at a later time, Nisa 176 is an excellent example:

004: 176 They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. Allah expoundeth unto you, so that ye err not. Allah is Knower of all things.

This verse must ensue verses 11-13 of the same chapter, which prescribe the law of inheritance. However, it was evidently detached from its place and later added to the surah in the last minute by an unknown editor.

More to the point, the linguistic structure of the Koran makes every sort of addition/deletion easier and more plausible than that of the Bible due to being comparatively poor in terms of thematic unity and coherence. It is always possible to tamper with jumbled verses than with well-developed chapters employing the same subject and following a chronological/logical order (unlike the present Koran).

Peace,
Angelos N.

You want me to agree that? I have learned Quran from true scholars of Islam. I didn’t interpret Quran myself since it didn’t revealed to me. You can keep on arguing, questioning verses. That is your choice. If there is a moment ever in your life to learn why it is, approch a true scholar of Islam. That is what I do in concern of Bible and those questions. Even in this forum I got answers for some of the questions. I am confirmed of one thing, all those questions which seem contradictions and problems to me doesn’t have to be really a problem once I get a logical evidental answer and I got answers for some of it. Rest are under discussion with apologists. If you too have a same concern about Quran, to accept logical answers, I would apperciate. You don’t even undersatnd that 4:11-13,176 came to give legal rights and inheritance for wemen in the society where new born baby girls were getting killed. Girls were used as concubines and slaves. Wemen were forced to do prostitution. It was called dark ages of arabia.

Despite of these facts, you are concerned of the linguistic structure of the verse??!!

 

[Khalfan]

So, let’s get this one straight. When you ask me to prove the Koranic verses that say Christians deceive Moslems, and I reply, you jump in immediately to attack the Bible?

Which argument do you want to have? A discussion about the Koran, or one about the Bible? And, you seem both a desire to defend the Koranic allegation against Christians but at the same time you want to agree with me by showing what we believe is false. Again, which argument do you wish to have? I’m quite amazed how many times Moslems wish to have every argument at once!

It doesn’t say “Fight by mouth”

And here’s the problem, are you saying we deceive people, with this falsehood, or not? You believe it’s false. You believe we teach it. I said that the Koran says that we deceive people. You deny it, and then say that we do. Which argument do you wish to have?

Islam’s always at war with non-Islam, excepting where non-Islamic powers have accepted Islamic superiority.
You know, all those verses about war…
“Those that make war against Allah and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be slain or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter.” (Sura 5.33)

“O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them. Allah guides not the people of the evildoers.” (Sura 5.51)

“Allah revealed His will to the angels, saying: ‘I shall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!’ That was because they defied Allah and His apostle. He that defies Allah and his apostle shall be sternly punished by Allah.” (Sura 8.12-13)

“In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones * one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost.” (Sura 8.37)

“And fight them until there is no more fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone (in the whole world). But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah) then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” (Sura 8.39).

“Muster against them * all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them who are unknown to you but known to Allah.” (Sura 8.60)

“O Prophet, urge on the believers to fight. If there be twenty of you, patient men, they will overcome two hundred; if there be a hundred of you, they will overcome a thousand unbelievers, for they are a people who understand not.” (Sura 8.65)

con’t…**

Look at the very first verse you Quoted Surah 5:33, we are allowed to fight only to ‘THOSE THAT MAKE WAR AGAINST ALLAH’. That is a restriction to us that we should not fight to anyone who don’t make war with us.

 

[Montalban]

Look at the very first verse you Quoted Surah 5:33, we are allowed to fight only to ‘THOSE THAT MAKE WAR AGAINST ALLAH’. That is a restriction to us that we should not fight to anyone who don’t make war with us.

And Christians are deemed to make war on Al-lah because you say we’re continually spreading lies about him.

You’re in a permanent state of war with people’s who’ve not submitted.

You claim we assign partners to God. This is false. You’re commanded to fight such ‘falsehoods’.

 

[Khalfan]

And Christians are deemed to make war on Al-lah because you say we’re continually spreading lies about him.

Do you think so? I said, we don’t want to fight anyone untill we are attacked. Are you tempting me to fight you? Don’t take the support of Quran. Because we know better, where to use those verses which seems impossible for you to understand.

You’re in a permanent state of war with people’s who’ve not submitted.

Most of my close friends are non Muslims. We are living here in a multy religious society. I never killed any non muslim. I don’t even know any of my Muslim friends did that. If there is any terrorist who misquotes the verses to kill, (like you do to tempt me) we are not responsible. All they will have to answer GOD for their deeds. Infact all religions have similar problems of misunderstood followers.

You claim we assign partners to God. This is false. You’re commanded to fight such ‘falsehoods’.

And I know how to fight those. I prefer fair dialogues. Are you a Christian?

 

[guanophore]

“Those that make war against Allah and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be slain or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter.” (Sura 5.33)

“O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them. Allah guides not the people of the evildoers.” (Sura 5.51)

“Allah revealed His will to the angels, saying: ‘I shall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!’ That was because they defied Allah and His apostle. He that defies Allah and his apostle shall be sternly punished by Allah.” (Sura 8.12-13)

“In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones * one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost.” (Sura 8.37)

“And fight them until there is no more fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone (in the whole world). But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah) then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” (Sura 8.39).

“Muster against them * all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them who are unknown to you but known to Allah.” (Sura 8.60)

“O Prophet, urge on the believers to fight. If there be twenty of you, patient men, they will overcome two hundred; if there be a hundred of you, they will overcome a thousand unbelievers, for they are a people who understand not.” (Sura 8.65)

Look at the very first verse you Quoted Surah 5:33, we are allowed to fight only to ‘THOSE THAT MAKE WAR AGAINST ALLAH’. That is a restriction to us that we should not fight to anyone who don’t make war with us.**

Sounds to me like the Christian or the Jew, by definition, make war against Allah. Such persons are automatically against Allah, because they do not submit to the God of Islam, or revere the prophet. Such persons all deserve to die, according to the Quran.

 

[El_Paulo]

By ‘generalisation’ you mean what Islam stands for.

How can we work together when Moslems are trained into thinking Christians and Jews are deceivers? It’s central to Islam, 'cause it’s in the Koran. They can’t take us as close friends, because of this.

Christians and Muslims are working together - what else can I say?

While I respect your comments and study of Islam, what you claim that cannot be true, is actually happening - I see evidence of what you say should be impossible - I see Christians and Muslims as work-mates and friends, on the basis of their faith.

Again, I DO NOT claim that Islam does not suffer from (and causes others to suffer) the real problems you are highlighting, however there should be a few caveats to those statements too. Muslims and Christians are, in many areas, offering a different vision of how it is possible for Islam to interact with other cultures/faiths than the one that is being force-fed to us.

 

[Montalban]

Christians and Muslims are working together - what else can I say?

Even Stalin and Hitler signed a non-aggression pact.

While I respect your comments and study of Islam, what you claim that cannot be true, is actually happening - I see evidence of what you say should be impossible - I see Christians and Muslims as work-mates and friends, on the basis of their faith.

Many Christians and Moslems don’t know their respective faiths all that well. What you’re observing probably has little to do with faith.

 

[El_Paulo]

Even Stalin and Hitler signed a non-aggression pact.

Noted.

Many Christians and Moslems don’t know their respective faiths all that well. What you’re observing probably has little to do with faith.

Has little to do with faith? I’d say that reaching out to, and engaging with, those who are different has everything to do with faith, and particularly the Christian faith.

Let me reasure you, these Christians and Muslims know their faith very well - as I’ve tried to explain,* their faith is the very reason why they are trying to work together* - ignorance cannot be the basis for such an important relationship. Thankfully, it’s a venture that is proving successful at the moment. Please pray for us.

 

[Khalfan]

Moslem Apologetics is an oxymoron.

Koranic exegesis is an oxymoron.

I have yet to meet a Moslem who will argue openly on the abyssmal differences between Islam and Christianity.

Every Moslem I have talked with has based any discussion of Judaism/Christianity/Islam on the assertions that 1. Jesus is a minor prophet of Allah; 2. The Jews are hated by Allah and are the offspring of Demons; 3. Abraham and Moses were really Moslem, not Jewish, and that 4. Women do not have souls and are not equal to Men before Allah.

There is the problem, deb1, it’s a fundamental perceptual handicap on the part of their beliefs, it has nothing to do with “playing nice” with a prosletyzing Moslem.

Pax Christi

I am a Muslim. Are you a Christain? Can we talk?

 

[Montalban]

Has little to do with faith? I’d say that reaching out to, and engaging with, those who are different has everything to do with faith, and particularly the Christian faith.

Maybe it’s just that we’re at heart decent people, until some are indoctrinated in Islam.

Let me reasure you, these Christians and Muslims know their faith very well - as I’ve tried to explain,* their faith is the very reason why they are trying to work together* - ignorance cannot be the basis for such an important relationship. Thankfully, it’s a venture that is proving successful at the moment. Please pray for us.

I do not believe that they know their faith well, owing to the Koranic calls for Moslems not to have close friends with non-believers.

 

[El_Paulo]

Maybe it’s just that we’re at heart decent people…

Which is another reason for hope!

…oh, and the fact that some Christians and Muslims here feel compelled to work together on the basis of their faith.

I do not believe that they know their faith well, owing to the Koranic calls for Moslems not to have close friends with non-believers.

I accept that you don’t belive it, but be reassured, they do.

 

[Khalfan]

Maybe it’s just that we’re at heart decent people, until some are indoctrinated in Islam.

Yaa. I can see that.

I do not believe that they know their faith well, owing to the Koranic calls for Moslems not to have close friends with non-believers.

That’s a lie. The verse was to use in a war between Muslims and Christians 1400 years ago. Now it is applicable only in religious wars. Wait a minute… who is calling up for a war here? is it you, the heart decent guy?

 

[Khalfan]

Sounds to me like the Christian or the Jew, by definition, make war against Allah. Such persons are automatically against Allah, because they do not submit to the God of Islam, or revere the prophet. Such persons all deserve to die, according to the Quran.

Read Exodus 22:19, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, 13-19, 17:2-5, Numbers 25:1-9. Isn’t it asking you christians to kill all non-Christians? How do you explain that?

Understanding the situation, where those commands should be applied is very important.

 

[guanophore]

Read Exodus 22:19, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, 13-19, 17:2-5, Numbers 25:1-9. Isn’t it asking you christians to kill all non-Christians? How do you explain that?

Understanding the situation, where those commands should be applied is very important.

So, what are you saying? That the salvation history of Islam has evolved, like the Judeo Christian? Are you saying all those verses about killing unbelievers are being taken out of context? Are you saying that the radical Muslims that are doing suicide bombings don’t understand their faith?

 

[cestusdei]

Actually those verses from the OT don’t mention Christians at all. Israel never went on a rampage to wipe out everyone else and populate the world with Jews. Only one religion seems inclined to do that and it started in Mecca.

 

[Keikiolu]

I am often afraid to post on threads discussing topics with Muslims. It makes me very sad see Catholics who I strongly respect getting so angry. It isn’t that I agree with Islam-I’d be Muslim if I did- but I don’t understand why we can’t have mature discussions with one another without getting so angry. Can we just treat one another with common courtesy?

No. Moslems can’t have mature discussions, because they refuse to agree to disagree on any point. You must be submissive to “them”, or (usually symbolically) die.

They will invariably take offense when a root disagreement is uncovered, insisting that it is not God but they themselves that must “enforce” the “insult” that is the active evil that is basic disagreement with any point of their “religion”.

It would be lovely if it were not so, as the “feebleness” of Islam would be demonstrated nicely if they WOULD agree to disagree about various things, but they won’t,… perhaps for that very reason.

Of course,… I could be wrong.

Don’t ask me,… ask the Magisterium…!!

Mahalo ke Akua…!

E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha.