Can we hope that nobody is in hell?

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Grace & Peace!

Just to shake things up slightly, and in light of some of us who believe that we can have no doubt as to the final destination of some souls, perhaps the question should be rephrased thus:

“Can we hope that anybody is in hell?”

Is it part of Christian charity to hope that any particular person be damned? Or even to claim to know (short of explicit revelation) that any particular person is damned?

(And thanks, Greg27, for eloquently bringing the Fathers into this and stating more authoritatively and lucidly what I was trying to say!)

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
palmas85 said:
That is what we used to call a big time cop out my man, big time. I asked you a very simple question, very simple indeed. You know the answer as well as I, Are you saying to avoid the truth and hope that somehow someway the truth isn’t the truth for charitys sake? Please.

And the section you quoted deals with a very specific action which generally is used to mitigate the conduct of adolescents. I somehow doubt that it is applicable in this case, but hey to each his own.👍
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You say that I am trying to avoid the truth, but neither you or I know what the truth is in this situation in regards to his personal culpability. You assume that you know what was happening in the intellect and will of Dr. King, but such assumptions do not make it reality. So, again, since we cannot know what potential mitigating circumstances occured I believe the charitable thing to do is to hope that they did occur and therefore decrease culpability.
 
Nick said:
You say that I am trying to avoid the truth, but neither you or I know what the truth is in this situation in regards to his personal culpability. You assume that you know what was happening in the intellect and will of Dr. King, but such assumptions do not make it reality. So, again, since we cannot know what potential mitigating circumstances occured I believe the charitable thing to do is to hope that they did occur and therefore decrease culpability.
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Sure. In essence what you are saying is ignore what happened and hope for the best.

Burying your head in the sand is really never the best option my friend.
 
Please desist discussing the ultimate fate of Martin Luther King (or anyone else for that matter) and return to the original topic. Thank you.
 
palmas85 said:
Sure. In essence what you are saying is ignore what happened and hope for the best.

Burying your head in the sand is really never the best option my friend.
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Can I hope that I wake up tomorrow with the skills/height of Michael Jordan and the body of a 20-year-old? Or is that out as well? 😃
 
fin said:
if we do not have the hope that nobody is in hell, then what is the point of us praying the Fatima prayer in between decades of the Rosary?:confused: Of course we can hope. I do.
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Agreed. Not that anyone is paying attention. (At least three or four people have pointed this out in the thread so far, and its been ignored.)

The Rosary (including the Fatima) is part of the universal teaching of the Church. One cannot maintain that it is an invalid prayer and still be Catholic.

The Church teaches not only that we can hope for an empty Hell, but it positively encourages us to pray for it.

However, this is not the same as universal salvation. There is a difference between saying “I hope and pray that the neccessities of salvation (for a protestant like Martin Luther King, a death bed experience of contrition I think) will happen to everyone.” and saying “It will happen to everyone.” or saying “Justice/Charity requires God to save everyone.” These are definately wrong.
 
Romans 3:10, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”
Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

2nd Thessalonians 1:8, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Revelation 20:15, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Revelation 21:8, “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30).

Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1st Peter 1:18-19, “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ…”

Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” :extrahappy:

1st Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”

1st Corinthians 3:11, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Rev.1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, :extrahappy:

Galatians 3:26, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.” :extrahappy:

God COMMANDS us to repent.It is not an option

There is no reason for any person not to repent. God wants all people to admit that they’ve been going the wrong direction in life. Then God wants us to follow the right path, Jesus Christ. “Jesus saith unto him, I am THE WAY, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). Jesus is the road to Heaven, there is NO other road which leads there.

Have you been driving down the wrong road? The road to hell is paved with good intentions and is lit with neon signs.

“Whosoever will” may come! “…and him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT” (John 6:37)

You can know for certain that you are saved!!!

“The Spirit itself BEARETH WITNESS with our spirit, that we are the children of God” (Romans 8:16).

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you” (John 14:16,17).

Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his” (Romans 8:9).

“These THINGS have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God” (1st John 5:13).
 
trentonzero said:
Agreed. Not that anyone is paying attention. (At least three or four people have pointed this out in the thread so far, and its been ignored.)

The Rosary (including the Fatima) is part of the universal teaching of the Church. One cannot maintain that it is an invalid prayer and still be Catholic.
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I am not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that the Rosary and the Fatima prayer have been dogmatically defined as being neseccary for all the faithful to believe in? If this is what you are saying, do you have documentation?

( I am not saying that I do not like the Rosary or the Fatima prayer. I love them both 👍 )
 
Deo_Volente said:
Grace & Peace!

Just to shake things up slightly, and in light of some of us who believe that we can have no doubt as to the final destination of some souls, perhaps the question should be rephrased thus:

“Can we hope that anybody is in hell?”

Is it part of Christian charity to hope that any particular person be damned? Or even to claim to know (short of explicit revelation) that any particular person is damned?

(And thanks, Greg27, for eloquently bringing the Fathers into this and stating more authoritatively and lucidly what I was trying to say!)

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
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When I read about some horrible murder cases, for example one I read on wikipedia about here in Australia where a nurse was abducted, tortured and raped multiple times by four men before she was horribly stabbed and strangled to death, I do feel a great rage in my heart and hope damnation is exactly what these people get. I also often feel the same towards those who I see in news about past or current genocides, especially those who murder and rape children, and also those who torture people and those who torture and kill animals for the pleasure of it, and also I think suicide bombers are not going to paradise (especially those who aim to murder as many civilians as possible) but are going in the opposite direction.

I also feel drug dealers, pimps, those who are members of crime families and syndicates, murderers, rapists, those who engage in ‘sex tourism’, people who deliberately try and destroy someone else’s soul via cruelty and domestic abuse or violence, adulterers and those who rape and pillage the planet in the name of greed and profit, and those who oppress and exploit the poor in any way, need to fear for their souls.

Still, I do hope God in his mercy finds a way to justly punish these people who don’t repent before death without needing to do so for all eternity, even if in my view some certainly merit eternal punishment.
 
Nick said:
I am not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that the Rosary and the Fatima prayer have been dogmatically defined as being neseccary for all the faithful to believe in? If this is what you are saying, do you have documentation?

( I am not saying that I do not like the Rosary or the Fatima prayer. I love them both 👍 )
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How can a request be a dogma?

Either it is proper to make the request or improper.

The Church heavily encourages the faithful to make this request on a regular basis.
 
I don’t know. based on the quote from John Paull II in post #4 it sounds like there will definitely be people in hell. I don’t know if it is clear that there are people there right now, but it seems that someday there will definitely be people there. what do you think about this quote?
 
CatholicNick said:
You’ll see a lot of relativism even on these forums, one just has to look in the non-catholic sections to see how people are with the Protestants in there…

Things need to be made clear to Protestants/heretics/heathens et al that they NEED to convert to the Catholic Church. Invincible ignorance is just that.

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. It is a Dogma.

St. Francis de Sales Pray for us!
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I’m not sure what you’re saying. Please explain. Are you saying that people outside the visible boundaries of the Church will go to hell no matter what they do (if they don’t convert to the Church?)? I think this is called “Feneeism” of some such thing and was condemned. But maybe I don’t understand what you’re saying.

Personally, I think a literal understanding of EENS makes more sense otherwise the Church seems irrelevant – but I’m not in the magisterium.
 
Dee_Dee_King said:
i watched msgr. swetland on EWTN last night say to college students at the university of illionis on the topic of salvation that since we don’t know who, if anyone, is in hell…
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When saints have taught on the topic of whether most Catholics are saved or damned they say that most are damned. I’ve read the sermon of St. Leonard of Port Maurice who quoted several important saints and doctors of the Church who taught this. Examples: St. Dominic, St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, St. Ambrose of Milan, St. Anselm.

Of course none of these saints are infallible but when they teach the same thing then it’s likely true.

The idea that nobody is in hell would mean that nobody committs mortal sin and refuses to repent. We know that someone who does such a thing will go to hell. The idea that nobody would ever do this is ludicrous as history tells us that people have done so.
 
Originally Posted by mchium
Sorry - but if that is true, then Jesus lied to us. He, Himself, said there were those who went to eternal damnation. I, too, hope for God’s mercy, not just on myself, but on all - but Jesus is the ultimate authority and whether I like it or not, there IS hell and there ARE souls there. Count on it.
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The existence of hell is one teaching of our Catholic faith that I have no problem defending at all. Jesus is so plain on this that it’s a simple referral to Him - end of story.
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Nick said:
Yes you are right. I should have said that we do not know who is in hell, not that we don’t know if anyone is there.
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Now, I am not so sure about what I wrote here. It seems like one might conclude from the John Paul II quote that there might not be souls in hell right now, but someday there will be. I don’t know, maybe I am misunderstanding the quote.

I submitted this question about hell along with the mortal sin one to the AAA forum, so hopefully it will get answered and shed some light on these topics.
 
I just found this in the AAA forum. It seems to answer the mortal sin question brought up before, and that is now being discussed in the other thread. I posted it there as well.

Hellisreal, I mean AAA as in Ask an Apologist on these forums.
 
Nick said:
I just found this in the AAA forum. It seems to answer the mortal sin question brought up before, and that is now being discussed in the other thread. I posted it there as well.

Hellisreal, I mean AAA as in Ask an Apologist on these forums.
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😊 :doh2: :hypno: :blushing:

I am such an idiot sometimes.Okay, a lot of the time.

Thanks for the heads up on that. I thought I was going to get advice on how to get maps. 🤷
 
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