Can We Put this Myth to Rest: EF vs EMHC?

[markomalley]

We have scheduled confession 3 times a week. Per my advice on a different thread, I try to arrive at the beginning of the scheduled time, so I don’t know how long the lines end up being, but during the time I am there, there is always a brisk business going on.

During advent, there were many additional confession times and lots of encouragement from the priests to take advantage of that fact.

We are very blessed in this parish and diocese.

Congratulations.

Again, I often see scenarios where communion lines are long and confession lines are nonexistent. (My parish is not that way, but I have seen many others that are)

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

This is what happens at my parish. However, even if all available ordinary ministers are there, the size of the parish, and attendance at Mass, is such that we still use a few EMHCs at every Sunday Mass.

I was at noon Mass today, which I was able to attend regularly in the past. There are easily 150 people there on an average day. That is the size of the congregation on a Sunday in some parishes. At a parish like that the priest and a deacon, or the priest alone should be able to handle communion. Not so in a larger parish.

That is assuming that the other priest there do not have other duties or (gasp) the day off during the week. The daily parish I go to has 3 priests however I have not seen one come in the help as they also have the school there and other duties. They do have confession right before Mass…same priest. They do not distribute under both species but they still use one EMHC during daily Mass.

However that still does not address those parishes such as my home parish…with one priest. So on a Wed night you still need at least 2 because we do distribute under both species. However we do typically have 3. Communion isn’t super short but Mass does need to wrap up in time for confession 6:30-7pm. For those of us that work…I am really thankful for the evening Mass and confession time. Which BTW usually lasts past 7 due to the number of people in line…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Actually, there is a canonical limitation on the number of Masses that can be celebrated. Can 905 covers it for priests (1x/day, but 2x or even 3x on Sundays if there is a shortatge of priests) and Can 917 covers reception of communion more than once per day.

What I’ve seen done is for an ordinary minister to put on an alb and stole and come out to distribute communion…and then return to the sacristy once communion is done. Total time commitment: 15 minutes. And it does not violate the canonical limitations.

Thanks for the education, sincerely. Maybe they also have other obligations going on?

Perhaps we all need to pray both for vocations AND our EMHC’s?

I myself would gladly step down if it meant we got another priest (or deacon) to help poor Fr. out!

 

[markomalley]

Thanks for the education, sincerely. Maybe they also have other obligations going on?

Certainly from time to time. And if there is only a single priest and maybe a couple of deacons, the situation is totally different. But in the situation like I described above, they could easily work out a schedule for at least the four Sunday AM Masses that would not impact even all of the ordinary ministers. And I bet it’s not that much different elsewhere either.

What is particularly aggravating to me is if the celebrant or deacon scheduled for the next Mass are sitting in the sacristy waiting for the next Mass at the same time that EMHCs are distributing communion. Just doesn’t seem quite right.

But, of course, with the dearth of vocations, this is not necessarily a universal situation. And is likely to become rarer as time goes on.

We should certainly all pray for vocations, as you suggest. Would that there were universally sufficient clergy so that EMHCs could truly become “extraordinary”

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

We should certainly all pray for vocations, as you suggest. Would that there were universally sufficient clergy so that EMHCs could truly become “extraordinary”

:thumbsup:We can both agree on that! I know right now we have the biggest group we have ever had entering the seminary…but it will be awhile. And with us and two other parishes in this city having only one priest each…sadly it will be awhile…but there is hope!

 

[MartyrForJesus]

How do you believe that it is different?

Because if both references were the same; as in if the Traditional Latin Mass is currently simply allowed temporarily, until we have a ‘perfect world’ with the Novus Ordo, it would not seem coherent with what Pope Benedict XVI has said in Summorum Pontificum:
Summorum Pontificum:

Nonetheless, the Roman Missal promulgated by St. Pius V and reissued by Bl. John XXIII is to be considered as an extraordinary expression of that same ‘Lex orandi,’ and must be given due honour for its venerable and ancient usage. These two expressions of the Church’s Lex orandi will in no any way lead to a division in the Church’s ‘Lex credendi’ (Law of belief). They are, in fact two usages of the one Roman rite.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

15 at a single Mass? Really?

However likely that is, I really hope that devout women who are serving as they are called, can run a man off from his vocation.

Traditionally there have always been more women at Mass and active in a parish then men. Even back in the misty past, a daily Mass wih only women and perhaps a few older men in attendance didn’t deter vocations. It is much more likely that young men don’t want to give up “freedom”, family life or money and not that a few women blocked his vocation with their “womenvibes”.

We have discussed this on other threads. It has absolutely nothing to do with ‘cooties’ or ‘woman vibes’. If there is a large female presence in a particular job/practice, it contributes in feminising that specific role, which makes the role unattractive for other men/boys. When men see the priest celebrating Mass with several other men/boys assisting him as altar boys/servers he will want to join in. If a man walks into a Mass with the priest being the only male; with 10 female altar servers and lots of female EMHC, they do not want to participate. It’s as simple as that. Not to mention that girl altar boys dressed in clerical attire sends out the wrong message concerning the clerical state, which is male-only.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

I must ask this: Howcome there are such huge lines for Holy Communion, but not for the Sacrament of Penance? I think that in 1905 when Pope St. Pius X started preaching for more regular reception of Holy Communion, it was to be a response that more regular confessions were to follow. These days we have everyone at Mass taking Holy Communion, but such tiny lines at the confessionals.

 

[triumphguy]

I’d be interested in seeing some kind of real study on this, because it sounds very “iffy” to me.

If it was true that seeing women in a particular role causes some kind of psychological barrier to men then:

After Margaret Thatcher there would have been no male Prime Minsters in England
Thanks to Danica Patrick NASCAR will go women only

OK those two were kind of silly, since they are one offs. But:

Law has about 50% female participation rate. It’s still seen as a good career by males. The same with Medicine. Women don’t tend to become plumbers and men don’t tend to become kindergarten teachers despite the careers being open to both.

I really find it hard to believe that my daughter being a female altar server is stifling the vocation of boys to the priesthood.

There are many other more important elements that stifle vocations.

The number one being that parents no longer promote the priesthood to their sons as a valid option for their lives.

The priesthood is not seen as cool for boys. We live in a materialistic world, and boys are attracted to the macho. So, many boys want to be firemen. The fact that women are allowed doesn’t put the boys off! Or they want a job with the big bucks so they can by the big toys: after all big boys like big toys.

Religion is heavily critiqued by the media.

Many Catholic schools aren’t really Catholic anymore, and don’t involve the parish priest in any meaningful way.

We don’t respect our clerics in any meaningful way either, nor do we include them in our lives or the lives of our community.

In the old days priests would teach football or boxing (etc etc) to the local boys. These days we aren’t going to let priests near our children unless they are vetted.

But I bet that if there was a revolution and priests started to get arrested in the streets many more boys would be attracted to the priesthood. The Church thrives when persecuted. It does not thrive when it refuses to be counter-cultural, or when it absorbs the culture too much.

Finally, we either believe that vocations are divinely inspired, or we don’t. If they are divinely inspired then they should be fostered no matter what the environment or circumstance.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

We have discussed this on other threads. It has absolutely nothing to do with ‘cooties’ or ‘woman vibes’. If there is a large female presence in a particular job/practice, it contributes in feminising that specific role, which makes the role unattractive for other men/boys. When men see the priest celebrating Mass with several other men/boys assisting him as altar boys/servers he will want to join in. If a man walks into a Mass with the priest being the only male; with 10 female altar servers and lots of female EMHC, they do not want to participate. It’s as simple as that. Not to mention that girl altar boys dressed in clerical attire sends out the wrong message concerning the clerical state, which is male-only.

It’s been discussed regarding ALTAR servers. As boys not want to serve with girls.

You have a hard time convincing me on the same thing for EMHC’s as boys/girls typically aren’t allowed to serve as EMHC’s. The interaction between altar servers and EMHC’s is limited. Any adult male serving as an EMHC that is put off by woman is someone who probably should not be a priest.

So…leaving altar servers out of it-seperate subject-female EMHC’s are not driving anyone off and since its the priest who asks us to serve…I trust his judgement.

Sorry for my leftover cooties on this response…

 

[pnewton]

Certainly from time to time. And if there is only a single priest and maybe a couple of deacons, the situation is totally different"

It is more common. We have one priest for 1200 families and five Masses squeezed into Sunday. Logistics is a real issue that must be addressed.

 

[triumphguy]

Same here: we have 6 Sunday masses with 500 or more communicants at 5 of them.

We have 2 priests and no deacons. With the priest and 3 EMHCs communion still takes 15 minutes.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

I’d be interested in seeing some kind of real study on this, because it sounds very “iffy” to me.

If it was true that seeing women in a particular role causes some kind of psychological barrier to men then:

After Margaret Thatcher there would have been no male Prime Minsters in England
Thanks to Danica Patrick NASCAR will go women only

OK those two were kind of silly, since they are one offs. But:

Law has about 50% female participation rate. It’s still seen as a good career by males. The same with Medicine. Women don’t tend to become plumbers and men don’t tend to become kindergarten teachers despite the careers being open to both.

I really find it hard to believe that my daughter being a female altar server is stifling the vocation of boys to the priesthood.

It probably would be if you put it that way. That is the result, not the immediate effect. Having female altar boys would make it unattractive for other boys, thus decreasing the amount of altar boys and in turn effecting the amount of possible candidates for the priesthood.

There are many other more important elements that stifle vocations.

They all contribute, some more than others. We must make the necessary steps that we can take today. Removing female altar boys is a far easier action that we can do today in comparison to trying to change society’s consumerism for example.

The number one being that parents no longer promote the priesthood to their sons as a valid option for their lives.
Yes, I agree that this is contributing to less priests, but I am uncertain as to how much effect it actually has.

The priesthood is not seen as cool for boys. We live in a materialistic world, and boys are attracted to the macho. So, many boys want to be firemen. The fact that women are allowed doesn’t put the boys off! Or they want a job with the big bucks so they can by the big toys: after all big boys like big toys.

That can be changed. We aren’t saying that altar boys are necessarily wanting to become priests, but rather it plants a seed that they can follow when they are older and have matured. A 10 year old altar boy might say that the priesthood sounds boring and that he wants to be a fireman, but when he has matured it may be appealing to him.

Religion is heavily critiqued by the media.
To be honest, I don’t think that really has an effect on a faithful, practising Catholic. If we are talking about Catholics who are likely to leave the faith because of something the media says, there are probably bigger issues at hand.

Many Catholic schools aren’t really Catholic anymore, and don’t involve the parish priest in any meaningful way.
I have heard this as well. I’m a teenager and have never been to a Catholic school, so I would not have expertise in this area. I would probably be confident in saying however that this is where the parents have to step in and teach the faith to their children.

We don’t respect our clerics in any meaningful way either, nor do we include them in our lives or the lives of our community.
I agree, and this needs to be fixed.

In the old days priests would teach football or boxing (etc etc) to the local boys. These days we aren’t going to let priests near our children unless they are vetted.
This is the result of the media. The amount of paedophile priests is a tiny minority, and the majority of them would have been eradicated from the ranks of the priesthood by now. The truth is that paedophilia is a societal problem, it is not simply a Catholic problem. I read somewhere, however I don’t know if it’s credibility, that the chance a boy was to be sexually abused by a priest is the same as the chance of it happening by an average married father. To put huge emphasis on priests and paedophilia I think is just intellectually dishonest and unfair.

But I bet that if there was a revolution and priests started to get arrested in the streets many more boys would be attracted to the priesthood. The Church thrives when persecuted. It does not thrive when it refuses to be counter-cultural, or when it absorbs the culture too much.
Bingo. Let’s get rid of the political correctness and get priests to start blasting the truth from the pulpit.

Finally, we either believe that vocations are divinely inspired, or we don’t. If they are divinely inspired then they should be fostered no matter what the environment or circumstance. I completely agree. The problem is lack of response to vocations. We can’t blame God for not calling enough priests , it is entirely our doing.

God Bless, it was enjoyable responding.

 

[triumphguy]

Yes: I like to debate too.

OK MFJ show me the proof that boys are not altar servers because the girls are.

And, which begs the question - how come the girls are willing/wanting to serve on the altar in the first place? Why is not attractive for boys?

Take away the girls and the boys still wouldn’t step up.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Yes: I like to debate too.

OK MFJ show me the proof that boys are not altar servers because the girls are.

And, which begs the question - how come the girls are willing/wanting to serve on the altar in the first place? Why is not attractive for boys?

Take away the girls and the boys still wouldn’t step up.

That’s not true. There is no certain ‘proof’; there is simply knowledge acquired through psychological studies that show that feminised roles become unattractive to males. The same applies to altar serving. At the F.S.S.P. parish in this diocese, they only have boys serving. They now have 10-15 altar boys every Sunday and that number slowly increases.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

It’s been discussed regarding ALTAR servers. As boys not want to serve with girls.

You have a hard time convincing me on the same thing for EMHC’s as boys/girls typically aren’t allowed to serve as EMHC’s. The interaction between altar servers and EMHC’s is limited. Any adult male serving as an EMHC that is put off by woman is someone who probably should not be a priest.

So…leaving altar servers out of it-seperate subject-female EMHC’s are not driving anyone off and since its the priest who asks us to serve…I trust his judgement.

Sorry for my leftover cooties on this response…

That’s why I said ‘Men/Boys’, to refer to males in general. The whole ideal of “Oh well if they are upset and don’t want to serve because of feminisation then they shouldn’t become priests in the first place” has the potential to be catastrophic.

 

[zab]

Yes: I like to debate too.

OK MFJ show me the proof that boys are not altar servers because the girls are.

And, which begs the question - how come the girls are willing/wanting to serve on the altar in the first place? Why is not attractive for boys?

Take away the girls and the boys still wouldn’t step up.

That’s right, even if you take away the girls the boys still won’t step up. It takes an interest and an effort on the part of the pastor to train and get new altar servers every year or else see to it that someone in the parish has this duty. You cannot expect young boys to want to volunteer to serve if the pastor shows no interest in their service.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

It is also upsetting to see 2000 years of tradition just thrown out the window in order to be ‘inclusive’. No offence intended, but that is how I see it.

 

[triumphguy]

That’s not true. There is no certain ‘proof’; there is simply knowledge acquired through psychological studies that show that feminised roles become unattractive to males. The same applies to altar serving. At the F.S.S.P. parish in this diocese, they only have boys serving. They now have 10-15 altar boys every Sunday and that number slowly increases.

Where are they published?

It is also upsetting to see 2000 years of tradition just thrown out the window in order to be ‘inclusive’. No offence intended, but that is how I see it.

There could be many reasons why there are increasing numbers of boys serving at an FSSP parish. There could be greater parental “investment”/involvement in terms of time and energy in the life of the parish for instance.

And Jesus was fairly inclusive for his day, wasn’t he?

Anyway, to get back on topic - kinda - Could you say that EMHC’s, and female EMHCs in particular are stifling priestly vocations?

 

[Colt]

And if you have too many people at your masses given the number of priests and deacons, get an altar rail. It is much more efficient and much more reverent. EMHC’s were never meant to be a way to encourage participation of the laity, as using the Body and Blood of our Lord to do this seems highly profane. Let’s pray for vocations so that we no longer have a need for these EMHC’s.

Neither has been proven to be fact. Just more personal preference.