Can You Really Have Two Many Kids?

[HouseArrest]

I don’t think you can have too many kids. My husband and I have 7. I would never be upset upon finding out I was pregnant. I used to think I would only get upset if I thought I could not financially take care of another one, but that was three babies ago and now I think that whatever God sends us, he will help us take care of. I had a c - section first and 6 VBAC’s afterwards, and I never worried about that being a problem because I left it in God’s hands. There have been times I’ve wondered how we’ll finance this and that, but instead of panicking, made the best decisions we could and the rest - yep, God again. I agree with (I think it was) puzzleannie that a lot of times it’s not too many kids - its the poor decisions that sometimes result in not being able to take care of them. I don’t mean to minimize peoples’ health, financial, or other problems by saying this because I know all families are different and can handle more or less. What I guess I mean to say is if you are doing what you’re supposed to by practicing NFP and tending to your marriage, if God sends another one, isn’t that what is “supposed to” happen, even if you don’t see it that way right now? He will give you what you need to take care of the new one. It does not need to make logical sense to us - like the available hours in the day/the number of kids must = the amount of time it takes to educate them. OR the amount of salary/the number of kids must = the cost of raising them. I just don’t think it works that way, because I have seen so many mini-miracles in our lives that obviously God is right here with us steering this big 'ole boat.

 

[LittleDeb]

Thanks Deb. Wish I could reply just to you, but since I can’t, here are a few thoughts on college.

Sure you can! Just click on my name and you can private message (PM) me. A left click will take you to a short list you of options, private message being one of them.

You make some good points. I am trying to let go and let God provide. Sometimes a just get too worried and snatch control back. God, being the loving God that He is, let’s me try to control when I insist. Then eventually I give it back to Him again.

Edit to add: For me it is actually never about not having more children. It is about handling what I have so that God blesses me with more. I have to take care of my health to retain my fertility. I tend to get jealous of big families and healthy people. Thankfully my family is so supportive that I will be able to care for as many as God sees fit. I just have to keep submitting to His will.

 

[maria29]

This whole issue of “must have” is nonsense. In the end, it doesn’t matter what we want, because God has the final say there. Even if a couple does want a large family, or even just one baby, it doesn’t mean that’s what they are going to get. Contrary to what we hear on tv, fertility is a blessing bestowed by God according to His plan, not ours. The most control we have in this area is the option of saying no to Him when He is ready to put His plan into action.

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And no, the church has zero requirements for parents to provide for their children. The closest I can come to a requirement in this area, is the Church as a whole (as in the parishes and the individuals within it) are to clothe, feed, and aid the poor. That’s an act of mercy for ALL catholics.

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**I’ve said numerous times, I find it interesting that Catholics are so ready to eradicate their opportunities for holiness in favor of physical comfort and financial security. **

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We need to be careful what we say on this subject. According to most here, I should not have had at least 3 of my children and my parents should not have had me. Our vision is so very limited to ourselves and this moment. Thankfully, God is not limited. He saw a horrid couple of people who shouldn’t have had children and sent them one anyhow. Me. And somehow a Catholic wife and mother of 8 grew out of that mess. No one is more surprised than me. He saw two stupid teens (are there any other kind?) with nothing but love for each other. And He made that enough to get them through loss of jobs/health/babies and more, when most of society would say to just get a divorce. society sure the heck wouldn’t have said to have the 3 babies in 3 years we had back then, but those babies gave us a reason to hang in when nothing and no one else did. He saw an only child and had the unique thought that maybe he could use some more kids to play with - and gave them to him when most men think their playing days are past. My dh will never have a day of playing all alone in a silent house again. He says it keeps him young.

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I don’t think anyone who used NFP is wrong for doing so.
But there is absolutely zero Church requirement to use it.
So don’t look at my family during bad times (Because everyone will have bad times!) and think, "There’s a family that has too many kids!"

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**Just because a person’s vision is too limited to see a value in more kids, doesn’t mean God’s vision is limited. As for my house, we’re at a point where we have enough hindsight to let us feel comfortable trusting in His plan for us. Doesn’t mean we aren’t scared or don’t think we’ll have rough times. Just means that we have been through hell before and He got us through it then, so I have no reason to think He wouldn’t do so again if we have to make a repeat visit. **

I understand where your coming from and I think you misunderstood my post. If it was where I would be homeless and not able to feed the child I have because I had another child this is not being a responsible parent.

The church does require us to prayfully decide how each child will impact your family and to me that means if I am going to end up homeless then now is not the time to have a child. As to the Church and government aid helping a family out, I belong to a low income mom’s forum and you’ll be surprised that most places have a 2-3 year wait on housing help. Most of these women don’t get more than $150 a month on food stamps to feed 4 people and this is the only money that’s coming in.

I trust in God but I also can trust that perhaps its God’s will that I have a small family. Just like I trust in God and he has opened doors for me for a different job when I was about to lose another one.

Again for the 1000 time I am not talking about providing designer clothing, cars, college educations and so on. I am talking about providing, beans, rice, diapers, water, soup, vegetables, fruits and so on and safe living environment for a child to grow up in.

On a side note, my DH and I were talking and he was telling me about how in one of his Theology classes (he’s got a Masters in Theology) they were talking about some Church document where the Church has said that governments have a right to control the population in their nation so long as its done within moral means.

 

[maria29]

Thanks Deb. Wish I could reply just to you, but since I can’t, here are a few thoughts on college. First off, I am the only one in my family to pay for my own college, and I’m the only one with a degree. The others never finished, though the tuition was paid for. I have a friend who is one of 15, whose parents also could not pay for college. They ALL have degrees, some of them even multiple degrees. Second, we are called to raise saints, not geniuses. Nobody needs a degree to get to Heaven, and there are lot of great saints who don’t have one. And lastly, if it is God’s will our kids go to college, He’ll provide the means. There are a lot of good Catholic colleges out there who will work with you financially, not to mention the avalanche of scholarships, many of which are untapped. Ponder Matthew 6.25-34. In the words of Jesus Himself we are “warned” not to worry over these things. Put God first and let the rest go.

The reason I am not a SAHM currently is because I went to one of those Catholic colleges and according to them since I was an only child and my parents made a combined income of $35,000-$40,000 they were responsible for $12-16,000 a year of tuition.

It was definitely God’s will that I attended the college I was at yet he didn’t always provide the means for me to attend, hence the $50,000 in student loans I have.

Sadly the protestant colleges are much better at providing financial aid. My DH went to Grove City for his undergrad and they promise that no student will graduate with more than $20,000 in debt.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I understand where your coming from and I think you misunderstood my post. If it was where I would be homeless and not able to feed the child I have because I had another child this is not being a responsible parent.

The church does require us to prayfully decide how each child will impact your family and to me that means if I am going to end up homeless then now is not the time to have a child.

No, the church does not require that of anyone. It is your diffinition of responsible, not the Church. At no point is any Catholic ever required to use NFP to any degree.

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I completely agree that it is an option for those who feel they must do something to prevent pregnancy for a time for whatever reason they feel is serious enough to warrant it’s use, but that is a far cry from it being a requirement of responsible parenthood.

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As to the Church and government aid helping a family out,

I’m not arguing that the Church or the community is doing enough - I’m saying we all have a responsiblity to help our neighbor when hard times come knocking.

I trust in God but I also can trust that perhaps its God’s will that I have a small family.

Did I say otherwise? No, I did not. Of course you can trust that God wants you to have a small family if He doesn’t send you more kids. I’m not sure I how it’s trust when one is not open to having more though??

I am talking about providing, beans, rice, diapers, water, soup, vegetables, fruits and so on and safe living environment for a child to grow up in.

So am I! If those were requirements to consider before allowing conception, we’d be missing many a saint, not to mention Christ! Granted Mary had an angel come to reassure her things would be okay, but still…?

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**I’m NOT saying I think you are a bad catholic in any way for using NFP. What I’m saying is that it’s incorrect to say others are irresponsible parents if they don’t make the same choice as you think you would. **

On a side note, my DH and I were talking and he was telling me about how in one of his Theology classes (he’s got a Masters in Theology) they were talking about some Church document where the Church has said that governments have a right to control the population in their nation so long as its done within moral means.

I can’t see how it could possibly done within moral means. Monetary loss? This is already done. Contrary to what many people think, I don’t get more funds for more kids and many programs top out after 3 or 4 kids. That’s the closest I can come to a moral way of controling population. Even that can be taken to extremes that I would think to be immoral. (For example, food rations that stop after 4 kids or refusing medical aid after 3rd born to the family.)

 

[RWMorris]

I think some people have children they can’t take care of and that is just plain wrong. We should never have children that we can’t take care of.
Saying that however, Catholic couples who CAN take care of their children and raise them in the Church simply adds more saints on the ground.
We only had four and not a day goes by that I don’t wish we’d had more. We were deeply concerned about whether we could afford it, and looking back, we could easily have afforded three or four more children. Catholic schools are very good about financial aid for more than three children, as we found out.
Children don’t need all the things that our popular culture insists that they do.
For anyone wondering if you should have more, listen closely: our main regret is not having MORE beautiful children!

 

[maria29]

What I was talking about when the church says we prayfully decide on how many children and what to take into account.

The spouses have the inalienable right to found a family and to decide on the spacing of births and the number of children to be born, **taking into full consideration their duties towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society, in a just hierarchy of values **and in accordance with the objective moral order which excludes recourse to contraception, sterilization and abortion

While NFP isn’t required by anyone I think the is qoute from Pope John Paul II sums it up for me how I feel about it and think its a useful tool in marriage.

At the heart of this work in natural family planning must be a Christian view of the human person and the conviction that married couples can really attain, through God’s grace and commitment to the natural methods, a deeper and stronger conjugal unity. This unity flows from and is enhanced by the dialogue, shared responsibility, mutual respect and self-control which are achieved in their practice of natural family planning.

 

[TweetyBird]

What I was talking about when the church says we prayfully decide on how many children and what to take into account.

No, the Church does not require anyone to “prayerfully decide” how many children to have. The Church does not require one, in any way, shape or form to decide one’s family size. You may do so, but are not required to do so. Any assertion otherwise is personal opinion and most certainly not Church teaching.

 

[maria29]

No, the Church does not require anyone to “prayerfully decide” how many children to have. The Church does not require one, in any way, shape or form to decide one’s family size. You may do so, but are not required to do so. Any assertion otherwise is personal opinion and most certainly not Church teaching.

I find it interesting that people are getting upset that a couple should pray about having another child? I wouldn’t of thought that this was some radical idea, to pray with your spouse before deciding whether or not another child is prudent. THis doesn’t mean not being open to life or not trusting in God, in fact in praying about another child I am asking for God’s direction and will.

This document from the Church sums up what I think and base our families views on.

The spouses have the inalienable right to found a family and to decide on the spacing of births and the number of children to be born, taking into full consideration their duties towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society, in a just hierarchy of values and in accordance with the objective moral order which excludes recourse to contraception, sterilization and abortion

 

[TweetyBird]

The spouses have the inalienable right to found a family and to decide on the spacing of births and the number of children to be born, taking into full consideration their duties towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society, in a just hierarchy of values and in accordance with the objective moral order which excludes recourse to contraception, sterilization and abortion

Please show me where it says a couple must use the above criteria to ‘decide’ their family size.

Edited to add: the “right to found a family and to decide on the spacing of births and the number of children to be born…” is not the same as an obligation to do so.

 

[maria29]

Please show me where it says a couple must use the above criteria to ‘decide’ their family size.

Edited to add: the “right to found a family and to decide on the spacing of births and the number of children to be born…” is not the same as an obligation to do so.

never said it was, just that this is what I base MY family size on. Just like any other chuch document I suppose you don’t need to take part in everything the Holy Father says and its up to you as a Catholic whether or not it works for you.

 

[TweetyBird]

I find it interesting that people are getting upset that a couple should pray about having another child? I

No one’s upset about that.

What is upsetting is the idea that all couples must do so. Many couples decide to leave their family size up to God and make no effort to limit family size. They are well within their rights to do so, just as I (and you, and any other couple) are well within their rights to use morally licit means to limit family size for just reasons.

 

[TweetyBird]

never said it was, just that this is what I base MY family size on. Just like any other chuch document I suppose you don’t need to take part in everything the Holy Father says and its up to you as a Catholic whether or not it works for you.

Baloney - has nothing do with “whatever works.” It has everything to do with Church teaching. You said earlier that Church teaching requires couples to decide their family size. It does not. It says they may do so. There is a big difference.

Here’s an analogy: One has a right to marry, but no obligation to do so. By “not taking part” in marriage, is one somehow “not taking part in what the Holy Father says” and just “doing what works?”

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I think some people have children they can’t take care of and that is just plain wrong. We should never have children that we can’t take care of.

That’s sad.

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I wonder if that’s how Mother Teresa viewed all those children she helped care for? I wonder if she thought, "It’s just plain wrong for these children to exist! Those people just should never have had them!"

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**Somehow I don’t think she looked at them like that. **

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What I was talking about when the church says we prayfully decide on how many children and what to take into account.

The spouses have the inalienable right to found a family and to decide on the spacing of births and the number of children to be born, **taking into full consideration their duties towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society, in a just hierarchy of values **and in accordance with the objective moral order which excludes recourse to contraception, sterilization and abortion

While NFP isn’t required by anyone I think the is qoute from Pope John Paul II sums it up for me how I feel about it and think its a useful tool in marriage.

And yet I view the underlined part as making it clear every couple has just as much right to NOT use NFP at all.

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Of course, nfp can be a useful tool in a marriage that needs it, but your or my opinion is not in any way a factor in whether it is useful for a couple to use it in their marriage or not, nor does that mean it should be required of every marriage.

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**When people start pushing nfp as a requirement of marriage and/or responsible parenthood, we are falling into the same mentality as those who contracept. A mentality that says we humans should have control over all things - esp life. A mentality that says “Children are a blessing, well except for those born to poor people, single mothers, and people in undeveloped countries - those people would really be better off if they hadn’t been conceived.” **

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At the heart of this work in natural family planning must be a Christian view of the human person and the conviction that married couples can really attain, through God’s grace and commitment to the natural methods, a deeper and stronger conjugal unity. This unity flows from and is enhanced by the dialogue, shared responsibility, mutual respect and self-control which are achieved in their practice of natural family planning.

Oh good grief, like having kids doesn’t have the same effect? And nfp is not the utopia of happy-happy-joy-joy that people like to promote. It is not natural for a couple to decide when they are most desiring of each other to forsake the marriage bed or wake up to temperature checks and a chart. One can argue it is more natural than contraception. One can say it is natural in the sense that no artificial means are used on or in the body. But the NATURAL marriage doesn’t include nfp or contraception. nfp is not natural to marriage. It is a justifiable and accepted recourse to those couples who find themselves in a situation of needing to sacrifice the marriage bed in order to postpone a pregnancy.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

No one’s upset about that.

I agree. Pray away! All for it. To me, one should pray about children BEFORE getting married at all. Once married, one must accept that any time they have sex, a child could result.

What is upsetting is the idea that all couples must do so. Many couples decide to leave their family size up to God and make no effort to limit family size. They are well within their rights to do so, just as I (and you, and any other couple) are well within their rights to use morally licit means to limit family size for just reasons.

**Very true indeed. **

 

[maria29]

Baloney - has nothing do with “whatever works.” It has everything to do with Church teaching. You said earlier that Church teaching requires couples to decide their family size. It does not. It says they may do so. There is a big difference.

Here’s an analogy: One has a right to marry, but no obligation to do so. By “not taking part” in marriage, is one somehow “not taking part in what the Holy Father says” and just “doing what works?”

Actually what I said is “The church does require us to prayfully **decide how each child will impact your family **and to me that means if I am going to end up homeless then now is not the time to have a child.”

I still don’t see how this is wrong for me to think this way. If me having another child equals homeless with no food and shelter, I don’t understand how that is being a responsible parent?

What I am trying to say that since its not an infallible document you can choose to do as you please on the subject. You can have one child or twenty so long as your not having children through an immoral means (abortion, birth control, etc) and have a just reason to do so.

What works for me is that my dh and I can only afford one child right now because of our money situation. We could not afford for just my husband to work. Now what works for another family is that they can afford to only have a husband and/or wife work and have lots of children. THats fine, its what works for them, iust not us.But that doesn’t make me less Catholic because I’ve got only one child because we literally can’t afford another one. I also feel and this is in our case ONLY that I don’t like to force God’s will one way just because I want to have another child. Then I am not listening to God’s will but instead to what I want and desire at this space in time.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

On a side note, my DH and I were talking and he was telling me about how in one of his Theology classes (he’s got a Masters in Theology) they were talking about some Church document where the Church has said that governments have a right to control the population in their nation so long as its done within moral means.

I just popped in to read the last posts on here, and read your post which really piqued my interest. Do you know the name of the document?

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Actually what I said is “The church does require us to prayfully **decide how each child will impact your family **and to me that means if I am going to end up homeless then now is not the time to have a child.”

I still don’t see how this is wrong for me to think this way. If me having another child equals homeless with no food and shelter, I don’t understand how that is being a responsible parent?

There is nothing at all wrong with YOU thinking YOU should use nfp at this time.

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There IS something wrong with thinking that it is required by the Church to base that decision on how a child would impact the family. It is an option, not a requirement of anyone.**

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The number one priority of a responsible parent is raising any child to be faithful to God and Church. All else is gravy. Some parents want more gravy for their kids. That’s fine and dandy, but not a requirement of God/Church.

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**To twist words a bit, are you saying it is irresponsible of Our Father to create His children in such situations? Surely not? **

 

[maria29]

There is nothing at all wrong with YOU thinking YOU should use nfp at this time.

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There IS something wrong with thinking that it is required** by the Church to base that decision on how a child would impact the family. It is an option, not a requirement of anyone.

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The number one priority of a responsible parent is raising any child to be faithful to God and Church. All else is gravy. Some parents want more gravy for their kids. That’s fine and dandy, but not a requirement of God/Church.

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**To twist words a bit, are you saying it is irresponsible of Our Father to create His children in such situations? Surely not? **

No but in our case I think we’d be forcing my will over what God’s will if I had a child right now especially since I am not “taking into full consideration their duties towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society” by fully knowing I cannot literally provide for another child, thus not taking into full consideration how it will impact my child and family already living.

 

[maria29]

I just popped in to read the last posts on here, and read your post which really piqued my interest. Do you know the name of the document?

My husband mentioned it but I am not sure now, so I’ll ask him when he gets home.