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poche
Guest
Do that often enough and maybe we could empty Purgatory.Well, there is that point. As my grandmother would often say, “Offer it up (for the poor souls in purgatory)!”
I can’t even think of how many times I heard that!
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po18guy
Well-known member
Archbishop Sample of Portland wrote a paper on liturgical music. The Priest who married us in 1980 was assigned a few years back to a Protocathedral of Saint James the Greater. He found a single fellow with an acoustic guitar singing. He has since been replaced with a choir and Gregorian chant.
Technically, a Cathedral does not have to be beautiful. Neither does the music. But, if both are beautiful and inspiring, it uplifts the heart (and un-grits the teeth). There are mainline Protestant denominations whose music puts most Catholic music to shame. Room for some ecumenism there…
Technically, a Cathedral does not have to be beautiful. Neither does the music. But, if both are beautiful and inspiring, it uplifts the heart (and un-grits the teeth). There are mainline Protestant denominations whose music puts most Catholic music to shame. Room for some ecumenism there…
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EasterJoy
Guest
In his capacity of Archbishop of Portland, Archbishop Sample is now on the Board of Directors at OCP.
There are many parishes in Oregon (both the Archdiocese of Portland and the Diocese of Baker) that do not have musicians who make a living at music. A pastor may wish he could replace the two amateur vocalists and the guy with a guitar with a full choir at every weekend Mass, but it does not work that way. Yes, there are mainline Protestant churches with more of an emphasis on the music, but they have congregations ready and able to spend the money for it.
More to the point, I have younger relatives who faithfully attend Mass every week and sometimes daily Mass as well who much prefer the newer music. They try to attend Masses where that is the norm and, well, they are more likely to actually sing when the newer pieces are played. Go figure, perhaps that is what* they* grew up with, but changing the music over from the newer to the older is not universally greeted as a change to more beautiful music.
I think OCP does try to publish the music that the parishes that buy from them want. Yes, they put in a lot of Hurd and Schutte, because those artists are signed with them, but those artists also composed music that choir directors choose. If no one wanted it, they’d quit printing it.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I would not think of it that way. I would think that every time you offer up the suffering of setting yourself aside in favor of the preferences of others, particularly at Mass, your willingness to do so will shorten the amount of purging it takes to make a saint of you. “If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing. Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but everyone for those of others.” (Phil 2:1-4)
Does the self-emptying required to sing music as beautifully as we can when we know a better selection could have been made compare at all to the self-emptying required to bring about the Incarnation? It would be silly to suppose so. Did Our Lord “know better” than his parents about many things when he returned with them to Nazareth after the Finding in the Temple? Of course he did. His perception amazed scholars. They did not always understand as He did, yet they had been set over him and so he was obedient to them. “Knowing better” does not change a relationship where one has more authority than another, where one is in a legitimate place of leadership.
It is not that objectively more beautiful music is* not* important–and I do believe there is such a thing as some music being objectively better or worse than other music. It is that the willingness to set ourselves aside with serenity when circumstances call for it is *even more *important. If we enter into Heaven, the music will be taken care of. The purging of our self-will is something that we can count on to come to our in-box.
Having said that, I don’t think there is anything wrong for Catholics who have permission to participate in Mass whereever they please to choose a place when they can where they believe their participation will bring the most glory to God. That does not have to be where they spend the most time gritting their teeth. It can be the place where the gifts they have been given join in to make the most pleasing bouquet. That is OK.
I mean this: It is not as if “bad music” or “bad homilies” or “difficult circumstances” at Mass are so particularly effective at the purging or the cultivation of our souls that we should put aside finding objectively better Masses, after all. Heaven forbid!
Is this a chicken-and-egg thing?
Do parishes play Hurd, Schutte et al because those are the songs that OCP puts in their hymnals, or does OCP put them in the hymnals because that’s what people want?
At least where I live, most choir directors at larger parishes know some of the composers (such as Hurd, Haas, and Schutte) at OCP and GIA or they are acquainted with choir directors who know composers for OCP and GIA. They get promotional recordings of some of the latest compositions and talk to each other about them.
So I guess it’s kind of both/and.
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Palatinus
Guest
What I am complaining about may be summed up in the lack of objectively beautiful art. Like church architecture, there is objectively beautiful music. One of the reasons why my heart was opened to the Catholic faith were the beautiful cathedrals of Europe. Everyone agrees they are beautiful. How about music that everyone agrees is beautiful for the Mass?
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Irishmom2
Guest
No, people are never going to agree on what us considered beautiful for the mass, or beautiful elsewhere. Like the cathedrals you mentioned earlier, I don’t think everyone agrees they are beautiful. (I do, but some people like simplicity.) You cannot dictate people’s taste.
Our humanness makes us all different. We are moved by different things.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
And this is your problem, there is no such thing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, whether art, architecture or music.
While I appreciate the grandeur of the European cathedrals and the work involved in building them without the benefit of modern technology, I much prefer a simple, light filled worship space.
As far as music, I am no fan of Gregorian chant but love simple, plain chant or Taize. I am not a fan of old, dirge-like hymns, but am a huge fan of those composers whom you condemn.
I am lucky that I have many choices of where I can attend Mass, and that includes a variety of musical styles.
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Irishmom2
Guest
Amen!
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pnewton
Guest
These two are not exclusive, so I do not understand the word “yet” used this way. Why not “therefore.”
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pnewton
Guest
I have mentioned this before, but there I do think hymnals produced by for-profit corporations have a basic weakness, at least in the United States where copyright law is so restrictive. It is simply too economical to hire staff musicians and use 100% of the stuff they crank out, the good and the mediocre. Paying for the best hymns across the board, regardless of who owned the copyright, would make hymnals too expensive and less able to compete.
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Joe_5859
Guest
OCP is a non-profit, which I think is good. It does somewhat make me uneasy that one publisher has an almost de facto monopoly on liturgical music in the United States. But at least they are a non-profit with a relationship with the diocese in which they reside.
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johnnyc176
Guest
Don’t worry it’s getting better…
thechristianreview.com/coming-soon-10-beautiful-new-churches-in-the-works/
and I know of a few others that were not mentioned because they are already complete.
The music will follow.
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Palatinus
Guest
I disagree. Modern art claims that anything can be beautiful. It was classical artists who believed that there was something objective. It did require basic education to identify it. This, Mozart will always be played because there is something objectively beautiful about it. Watch this video by Bishop Barron entitled “Is beauty really in the eye of the beholder?”
youtu.be/uc4dxdUj5AM
youtu.be/uc4dxdUj5AM
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
I will not argue with you. I have heard what Bishop Barron says but not sure I completely agree.
I will ask again, what are you doing to bring the music in your parish to the level that you believe it should be at? Do you sing in the choir? Can you play the organ or any other instrument? Are you giving extra money to the parish so that they can hire better trained musical people?
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pnewton
Guest
My concern from the original post is not that anything can be beautiful, but that certain things cannot be beautiful. I can accept the objective beauty of Mozart without denying the same beauty in some in some of the modern composers who are regularly lambasted here. Likewise, I may truly not enjoy something considered beautiful, be it Mozart or a hymn by Haas. It may do nothing for me. If I am in a culture (or parish) where something objectively beautiful to the European ear simply does nothing spiritual for anyone present, is it still suitable for liturgy?
The argument from objective beauty is simply not relevant, even if it were to be conceded. Mass is not a museum.
I am also a little concerned that teaching aesthetics may be cultural indoctrination disguised. I would love to hear what Fr. Barron might say about the existence of beauty in the best bluegrass, Dixieland, or mariachi music.
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2cherubs
Guest
I’m going to get pelted with last year’s Missals for saying this, but to those of us who are well-trained in music and music appreciation, most contemporary Catholic music is to liturgy as McMansions are to architecture.
A deeper, richer worship must go beyond three-chorded strumming and first-person lyrics, (the emphasis on “me, me” me" and “I, I, I” gets old). There’s a book about this white elephant in the room for Catholics, but I haven’t yet read it. goodreads.com/book/show/1177357.Why_Catholics_Can_t_Sing
Borrowing from another denomination, I love how John Wesley defined quality church music. epworthchapelonthegreen.org/hymns
On a slightly related note, as someone who grew up Anglican, I don’t think I’ll ever get past how Catholics sing during the Eucharist. We received the Eucharist in silent, contemplative reverence, in the spirit of Psalm 46:10 - “Be still and know that I am God.” Only after the Eucharist went back to the tabernacle could we pull out the hymnals. My point is in sharing this anecdote is that it’s really difficult for me to focus and reflect on the Eucharist with kitschy music in the background.
Look, I get that music ministry volunteers mean well and work hard. I also know that most of the Old Guard won’t look kindly on a lone newcomer coming in to overhaul the music selection. For some perspective, I also attend a Marty Haugen parish. I just remind myself that Mass is not an individual spiritual encounter; rather, it is to be celebrated in community. You can try broaching the music topic gingerly with your priest or music director. But sometimes worshiping in community just means crying babies, stinky armpits, and awful music. We’re there to celebrate the Mass, and that’s that.
The original poster has a couple of choices. The first is to shop for a new parish, a luxury that urban dwellers can enjoy. If you find one with quality music, please consider supporting the endeavor by joining the choir. The second is to stay at your current parish and enrich your faith outside Sunday Mass with more frequent visits to Daily Mass and/or adoration.
Blessings to you. To quote one smarmy politician, I feel your pain.
A deeper, richer worship must go beyond three-chorded strumming and first-person lyrics, (the emphasis on “me, me” me" and “I, I, I” gets old). There’s a book about this white elephant in the room for Catholics, but I haven’t yet read it. goodreads.com/book/show/1177357.Why_Catholics_Can_t_Sing
Borrowing from another denomination, I love how John Wesley defined quality church music. epworthchapelonthegreen.org/hymns
On a slightly related note, as someone who grew up Anglican, I don’t think I’ll ever get past how Catholics sing during the Eucharist. We received the Eucharist in silent, contemplative reverence, in the spirit of Psalm 46:10 - “Be still and know that I am God.” Only after the Eucharist went back to the tabernacle could we pull out the hymnals. My point is in sharing this anecdote is that it’s really difficult for me to focus and reflect on the Eucharist with kitschy music in the background.
Look, I get that music ministry volunteers mean well and work hard. I also know that most of the Old Guard won’t look kindly on a lone newcomer coming in to overhaul the music selection. For some perspective, I also attend a Marty Haugen parish. I just remind myself that Mass is not an individual spiritual encounter; rather, it is to be celebrated in community. You can try broaching the music topic gingerly with your priest or music director. But sometimes worshiping in community just means crying babies, stinky armpits, and awful music. We’re there to celebrate the Mass, and that’s that.
The original poster has a couple of choices. The first is to shop for a new parish, a luxury that urban dwellers can enjoy. If you find one with quality music, please consider supporting the endeavor by joining the choir. The second is to stay at your current parish and enrich your faith outside Sunday Mass with more frequent visits to Daily Mass and/or adoration.
Blessings to you. To quote one smarmy politician, I feel your pain.
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pnewton
Guest
I think you have a point, especially if one is in a parish rich with those well-trained in music and music appreciation. However, very little of the music played (if any) uses three chords. In fact, it is a forced complexity that puts some off, or so it seems. Where as chant can have just three chords. I find it hard to consider Gregorian chant less beautiful for its simplicity.
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pianistclare
Guest
OCP is not the only vendor of Catholic music.
We use OCP for Responsorial psalms becuase we like them chanted and not rearranged
We use GIA for hymnals
We use WLP for missalettes and pieces that are out of print elsewhere.
Your parish uses what they have or what they have subscriptions to.
The Music Director follows the advice of the Pastor. I know. I’ve been one for nearly 30 years. There are different types of music depending on the population at various Masses.
Masses where everyone is elderly get different hymns.
Masses with young children get other choices.
Quiet, very poorly attended weekday Masses get more reflective music.
Honestly, I am really sick of people trying to tell others how to do their job.
Most Choir Directors are VOLUNTEERS that can play an instrument or carry a tune. They certainly don’t make a living wage.Which means…they use whatever is in the music closet.
Get over it.
You want better music?
Petition the Parish Finance committee to hire a professionally trained, degreed person in Music and Liturgy. My parish did that, so here I am. Happy.
Last Sunday during announcements, I asked who wanted to join the choir???
Crickets.
People talk a big line, but when push comes to shove…it’s like WHO ME???
Gimme a break. There are GREAT Catholic composers. People just believe the church is a democracy and they get a vote on everything from the liturgical appointments in a parish to the hymns that are played, to the style of the vestments.
They don’t.
Andi n fact…in the “good old days” you wouldn’t even be permitted to complain about it! If Father didn’t show you the door, his secretary would. We’ve come a long way. We have to listen to every liturgy expert off the street and smile and say, “oh thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut!”
I pick the hymns, and the parish is VERY happy. Execution is everything. Hire a great musician, and see if the hymns and the singers don’t sound better and better.
:harp:
We use OCP for Responsorial psalms becuase we like them chanted and not rearranged
We use GIA for hymnals
We use WLP for missalettes and pieces that are out of print elsewhere.
Your parish uses what they have or what they have subscriptions to.
The Music Director follows the advice of the Pastor. I know. I’ve been one for nearly 30 years. There are different types of music depending on the population at various Masses.
Masses where everyone is elderly get different hymns.
Masses with young children get other choices.
Quiet, very poorly attended weekday Masses get more reflective music.
Honestly, I am really sick of people trying to tell others how to do their job.
Most Choir Directors are VOLUNTEERS that can play an instrument or carry a tune. They certainly don’t make a living wage.Which means…they use whatever is in the music closet.
Get over it.
You want better music?
Petition the Parish Finance committee to hire a professionally trained, degreed person in Music and Liturgy. My parish did that, so here I am. Happy.
Last Sunday during announcements, I asked who wanted to join the choir???
Crickets.
People talk a big line, but when push comes to shove…it’s like WHO ME???
Gimme a break. There are GREAT Catholic composers. People just believe the church is a democracy and they get a vote on everything from the liturgical appointments in a parish to the hymns that are played, to the style of the vestments.
They don’t.
Andi n fact…in the “good old days” you wouldn’t even be permitted to complain about it! If Father didn’t show you the door, his secretary would. We’ve come a long way. We have to listen to every liturgy expert off the street and smile and say, “oh thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut!”
I pick the hymns, and the parish is VERY happy. Execution is everything. Hire a great musician, and see if the hymns and the singers don’t sound better and better.
:harp:
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