Can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't feel right

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu
Honor thy father and thy mother.

You’re arguing that God (Jesus) in heaven (eternity) has to listen to a being (Mary) he created, purely because she played the role of mother to him for the brief period (33 years) he was on earth. (temporary)

I’m arguing that Jesus DOES listen to His mother because He too applies the laws which He revealed to us.

Are you contending that He CAN’T listen to His mother?

Jesus is a person (in our time, contained within the divine perspective of eternity, wholly man and wholly God) whose history includes Mary, with her unique relationship to Him, and whom it would be “unlikely” that He would disregard entirely, simply out of christian charity.

I don’t DEMAND that she speak to Him. I don’t demand that He listen to her. I find it ludicrous that she wouldn’t help her Son’s people if asked, and that He would refuse to listen to her.

Quote:
Why would he NOT listen to his mother,

Jesus never acknowledged Mary as his mother.

Jesus never once called Mary “mother”, he always refered to her as “woman”.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt4sect1chpt2art2.htm

Are you saying that Mary wasn’t the mother of Jesus?

He most likely didn’t “acknowledge” that his left tibia was his left tibia either,… but that doesn’t change the relationship.

Quote:
if she had important information to tell him from us,

God (Jesus) is omniscient.

When you lie on your bed and think bad thoughts, guess what? God hears them.

To say that Mary in heaven has information from us to pass on to Jesus that he didn’t know about calls God’s omniscience into question.

This is what comes of a view where we creatures have no free will to make decisions because God has predestined the course of time in the un-mysterious way that the contents of a book are a predestined “story”.

It divorces us from all meaningful action. We can thus do nothing that is of any value because “it’s all written”, as the words are written in a book.

I choose to believe that the reason that God created us in a world of time is to give the souls he creates a place to grow to know Him, gradually, by a process of edification that helps us to sense His freely given grace and WANT to be with Him.

“Gradual edification” is key in the preceeding.

Part of that edification is God’s allowing us poor time-bound short-lived creatures to have divine “helpers” (intercessors), which He created for us from among us.

Jesus always hears our prayers directly, and through Mary, and through the Saints, an through our earthly friends.

Just as I believe in God the Father, and The Son, and the Holy Spirit, I believe that the whole body of Christ, the Church, hears all our prayers, and echos them on toward the only One who can do anything in response to them.

(( You’ll have to take it as axiomatic that I’d never do or say ANYTHING that would lessen God’s omniscience, as that would be to put call God not-God. ))

Love,
Rev

E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Not true, it was a general expression for any woman.

Not for one’s own mother, it wasn’t.
Such a use is unattested anywhere in scripture for
one’s own mother.

Exactly.

Jesus didn’t see Mary as his mother.

He saw her as just a nice woman who fit certain requirements (lineage of David, virgin etc) to provide his entry into this world.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Mannyfit75]

Exactly.

Jesus didn’t see Mary as his mother.

He saw her as just a nice woman who fit certain requirements (lineage of David, virgin etc) to provide his entry into this world.

God Bless,
Rev

So you mean Jesus just use her as creature and throw her away after he came into this world? So you think when Jesus called Mary “woman” implies lower her status as woman?

Wouldn’t Jesus be guilty of sin by breaking the commandments?

“Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.”

(Exodus 20:12 NRSV)

“Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.”

(Deuteronomy 5:16 NRSV)

“You shall each revere your mother and father, and you shall keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.”

(Leviticus 19:3 NRSV)

I don’t think he dishonor his mother by merely calling Mary woman.

We both know John wrote the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelations.

John again used the term “woman” in the Book of Revelations Chapter 12. This woman (individually speaking) gave birth to a male child, who will rule with an iron rod." This male child is Jesus. The woman is Mary.

In Genesis 3:15. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Satan is both the Serpent of Genesis, and the Dragon of Revelation. Jesus is the “seed” who will crush the serpent in Genesis, and the child who will rule with a rod of iron in Revelation. In both, He and His mother, the Woman, are at permanent enmity with the serpent. The Woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is the same. However no one suggests that the woman of Genesis 3 is Israel.

 

[Mannyfit75]

in addition,

Luke 11:28 - when Jesus says, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it,” some Protestants also call this a rebuke of Mary. Again, to the contrary, Jesus is exalting Mary by emphasizing her obedience to God’s word as being more critical than her biological role of mother. This affirms Luke 1:48.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - when Jesus asks, “Who are my mother, and sisters and brothers?,” some Protestants argue that Jesus is rebuking Mary in order to denigrate her. To the contrary, when Jesus’ comments are read in light of Luke 8:5-15 and the parable of the sower which Jesus taught right before His question, Jesus is actually implying that Mary has already received the word as the sower of good ground and is bearing fruit. Jesus is teaching that others must, like Mary, also receive the word and obey it.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - finally, to argue that Jesus rebuked Mary is to argue that Jesus violated the Torah, here, the 4th commandment. This argument is blasphemous because it essentially says that God committed sin by dishonoring His Mother.

Luke 11:28 - when Jesus says, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it,” some Protestants also call this a rebuke of Mary. Again, to the contrary, Jesus is exalting Mary by emphasizing her obedience to God’s word as being more critical than her biological role of mother. This affirms Luke 1:48.

Luke 11:28 - also, the Greek word for “rather” is “menounge.” Menounge really means “Yes, but in addition,” or “Further.” Thus, Jesus is saying, yes my mother is blessed indeed, but further blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus is encouraging others to follow Mary’s example in order to build up His kingdom.

Luke 11:27-28 - finally, Jesus is the one being complimented, not Mary. Therefore, Jesus is refocusing the attention from Him to others who obey the word of God. If He is refocusing the attention away from Him to others, His comment cannot be a rebuke of Mary His mother.

John 2:4 - this is another example that Protestants use to diminish Mary’s significance. Jesus’ question to Mary, “what have you to do with me?” does no such thing. To the contrary, Jesus’ question illustrates the importance of Mary’s role in the kingdom. Jesus’ question is in reality an invitation to His mother to intercede on behalf of all believers and begin His ministry, and His Mother understands this. Mary thus immediately intercedes, Jesus obeys her, and performs the miracle which commenced His ministry of redemption.

Luke 8:28 - the demons tell Jesus the same thing, “what have you to do with us.” The demons are not rebuking Jesus, for God would not allow it. Instead, the demons are acknowledging the power of Jesus by their question to Him.

John 2:4; 19:26 - when Jesus uses the title “woman” (gnyai), it is a title of dignity and respect. It is the equivalent of Lady or Madam. Jesus honored His Mother as God requires us to do.

 

[Revelation13_16]

So you mean Jesus just use her as creature and throw her away after he came into this world? So you think when Jesus called Mary “woman” implies lower her status as woman?

No, don’t put an intentional negative spin on it.

Mary served a purpose, Jesus loved her & cared about her enough to want John to look after her, but she was not his mother in his eyes.

Wouldn’t Jesus be guilty of sin by breaking the commandments?

What commandment has he broken?

And don’t say “honor thy mother and thy father” because God has no mother/father, he is the I AM.

“Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.”

Let’s apply this to Jesus:

“God, honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land the LORD your God is giving you God.”

“Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.”

Look at the part in bold.

If you apply this to Jesus and he breaks it, will things not go well with him?

If things don’t go well for God does that mean God loses?

No way, nonsense.

“You shall each revere your mother and father, and you shall keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.”

“Jesus keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God … Jesus”

C’mon, Jesus broke the Pharisee’s sabbath laws by healing people because the sabbath was his to do as he pleases.

I don’t think he dishonor his mother by merely calling Mary woman.

It’s not dishonoring, but as you can see by Jesus & Peter’s use of the words (by the way, out of all of the Canonical Bible, all those utterings are the only time woman is used in speech) they just refer simply to women.

We both know John wrote the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelations.

John again used the term “woman” in the Book of Revelations Chapter 12. This woman (individually speaking) gave birth to a male child, who will rule with an iron rod." This male child is Jesus. The woman is Mary.

In Genesis 3:15. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Satan is both the Serpent of Genesis, and the Dragon of Revelation. Jesus is the “seed” who will crush the serpent in Genesis, and the child who will rule with a rod of iron in Revelation. In both, He and His mother, the Woman, are at permanent enmity with the serpent. The Woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is the same. However no one suggests that the woman of Genesis 3 is Israel.

No, because now you’re changing from 2nd person usage of the word “woman” to 3rd person usage of the word woman.

I don’t deny that through Eve, Adam sinned.

I don’t deny that through Mary, Jesus was born.

But Jesus clearly equated Mary as just another woman, and not his mother.

Which is logical because God can have no mother/father.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Mannyfit75]

And don’t say “honor thy mother and thy father” because God has no mother/father, he is the I AM.

I didn’t imply that he break the commandment. Indeed, Jesus did say before Abraham, I AM (YHWH)

Jesus has a Mother though, and she is Mary. Both we know this. We also know that Jesus is both True God,and True Man.

Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God, the Son. Second Person of the Trinity. She is not however, the Mother of God, the Father or the Holy Spirit.

Jesus did not break the Fifth Commandment, by dishonoring his mother. Rather he is pleased by her, because Mary embrace God’s will by saying, "Be it done unto me, according to your Word. She also said, “My soul, magnify the greatest of the Lord God, my Saviour.”

 

[Revelation13_16]

I didn’t imply that he break the commandment. Indeed, Jesus did say before Abraham, I am.

Jesus has a Mother though, and she is Mary. Both we know this. We also know that Jesus is both True God,and True Man.

He had to have an earthy mother to fulfil the prophecy regarding the messiah. (lineage of David, virgin)

Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God, the Son. Second Person of the Trinity. She is not however, the Mother of God, the Father or the Holy Spirit.

Are you telling God how things are?

Jesus himself (God) didn’t view Mary as his mother.

For our purposes, she was a necessity to fulfil prophecy and to prove Jesus was made of flesh and not an apparition like the Docetists claim.

But that’s it.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Mannyfit75]

He had to have an earthy mother to fulfil the prophecy regarding the messiah. (lineage of David, virgin)

Mary is from the lineage of David. This was to fulfil the prophecy of the saving Messiah.

Are you telling God how things are?

There is a heresy called Nestorianism. Nectorianism is the Christian doctrine that Jesus exists as two persons, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, or Logos, rather than as a unified person. This doctrine is identified with Nestorius (c. 386–c. 451), Patriarch of Constantinople. This view of Christ was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and the conflict over this view led to the Nestorian schism, separating the Assyrian Church of the East from the Byzantine Church

Jesus himself (God) didn’t view Mary as his mother.

He does but only address her as woman which does not degrade or lower Mary.

Nectorianism rejected the term Theotokos (Giver of birth to God/Mother of God) as a title of the Virgin Mary, suggesting instead the title Christotokos (Giver of birth to Christ/Mother of Christ), because in their opinion Mary gave birth to only the human person of Jesus and not the divine.

Correct me if I’m wrong. Do you deny that Mary is the Mother of God, the Son?

For our purposes, she was a necessity to fulfil prophecy and to prove Jesus was made of flesh and not an apparition like the Docetists claim. But that’s it.

Yes, Jesus is the Word made flesh… who dwelt amongst us. He also had a mother, Mary. So she can be rightly called Mother of God.

God Bless,
Rev

If you wonder what Theotokos means. Here is a definition;

Theotokos (Greek: Θεοτόκος, translit. Theotókos; Latin Deipara, Dei genetrix; Slavonic: Богородица translit. Bogoroditsa, Georgian: ღვთისმშობელი transl. ghvtismshobeli, Romanian Născătoare de Dumnezeu) is a title of Mary, the mother of Jesus. This term is used especially in the Eastern Orthodox Church and Eastern traditions within the Catholic Church. Its literal English translations include “God-bearer” and “the one who gives birth to God”; less literal translations include “Mother of God Incarnate”[1] and “Mother of God”.

 

[Revelation13_16]

There is a heresy called Nestorianism. Nectorianism is the Christian doctrine that Jesus exists as two persons, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, or Logos, rather than as a unified person. This doctrine is identified with Nestorius (c. 386–c. 451), Patriarch of Constantinople. This view of Christ was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and the conflict over this view led to the Nestorian schism, separating the Assyrian Church of the East from the Byzantine Church
Jesus himself (God) didn’t view Mary as his mother.

Nectorianism rejected the term Theotokos (Giver of birth to God/Mother of God) as a title of the Virgin Mary, suggesting instead the title Christotokos (Giver of birth to Christ/Mother of Christ), because in their opinion Mary gave birth to only the human person of Jesus and not the divine.

I’m aware of Nestorianism.

Correct me if I’m wrong. Do you deny that Mary is the Mother of God, the Son?

Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Mannyfit75]

We’ll discuss this later, because it is late here. Before I go, do you condemn Nectorianism?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Help me out here. I simply cannot equate people stating this:

“I call Mary blessed as the Bible commands” (note that this is directly from Scripture, Luke 2: “All generations shall call me blessed”

with them going on to state things like:

Jesus himself (God) didn’t view Mary as his mother.

(note that this is opinion)

Jesus didn’t see Mary as his mother.

He saw her as just a nice woman who fit certain requirements (lineage of David, virgin etc) to provide his entry into this world.

(note this is opinion as well).

but she was not his mother in his eyes.

(opinion).

How can one acknowledge that

“Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, the Son of God”

, claim to call her blessed for that, yet also claim that Jesus as God did not view Mary as His Mother?

If Mary was not to be viewed as the Mother of God, then why honor her? If she was not to be a ‘real’ mother how is she blessed to have given her permission to give birth to Christ, yet denied any ‘real motherhood’? What is she, a surrogate who has no real biological attachment to the child, is simply used as a ‘vessel’, etc.? What a slap in the face to Christians of the past 2000 years then, for their Christian teaching which says directly otherwise, and always has.

Incidentally, what a slap in the face to Mary, Mother of Jesus.

Please join me in a “Hail Mary” in reparation for this deliberate, though hopefully unconscious and unrealized, slur upon her holy name and her motherhood.

 

[hosemonkey]

Protestants dishonor Jesus Christ by their deliberate disrespect for His Most Holy Mother. Sometimes it is deliberately malicious, but most often it is out of simple ignorance. Their disrespect hurts only themselves as our Most Holy Mother sees their ignorance and yet continues to intercede for her earthly children.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

One of the posters above is saying that Jesus didn’t regard Mary as his mother.

This is truly appalling.

I am a convert to the Catholic Faith, from an antiCatholic background, but I can honestly say that I have NEVER
heard ANY other protestant (other than the poster above)
dare claim that Jesus didn’t regard Mary as his mother.
This is REALLY out of the ballpark. Whoever could believe such a thing is clearly not understanding the sense of the scriptures.

Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)

 

[Revelation13_16]

One of the posters above is saying that Jesus didn’t regard Mary as his mother.

This is truly appalling.

I am a convert to the Catholic Faith, from an antiCatholic background, but I can honestly say that I have NEVER
heard ANY other protestant (other than the poster above)
dare claim that Jesus didn’t regard Mary as his mother.
This is REALLY out of the ballpark. Whoever could believe such a thing is clearly not understanding the sense of the scriptures.

Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)

I said:

Not true, it was a general expression for any woman.

You then said:

Not for one’s own mother, it wasn’t.
Such a use is unattested anywhere in scripture for
one’s own mother.

God bless,
Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)

You posted this 4 minutes after my post that gave all the times in Canonical Scripture where someone is refered to as “woman” in the 2nd person.

The usage of the word “woman” from that Scripture clearly shows that it was not a special term of reverence (as someone claimed) but rather a general term.

Jesus used it for Mary, Mary Magdelene, a Samaritan adultress, an another adultress. Peter used it to the woman who accused him of being a diciple of Jesus

Out of all the 66 books of the Canonical Bible, only 2 people use this term in the 2nd person - Jesus & Peter, you may check Scripture for yourself.

You may choose to believe otherwise, but such a belief has no biblical basis, and as far as I know, the words of our Lord are only recorded in Scripture.

And in Scripture, He called his mother “woman” like he called any other woman - even a Samaritan.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Jaypeeto3]

Dear poster,
Despite your smartalecky comments, I happen to revere the word of God. I accept the interpretation of it held by Christians from the time of the apostles, not your personal protestant interpretation which downplays God’s choosing of Mary.

What I *** said *** was that the use of the word WOMAN to address one’s OWN MOTHER is unattested in scripture.
It is.

I am perfectly aware that Jesus called many other women, Woman. There was nothing unconventional about that. It was a basic term of respectful address to women other than your own mom.

In lieu of Mary’s fulfillment of the Woman and Virgin prophesied in Genesis 3:15, Isaiah, et al, Jesus’s calling Mary, his own mother, “Woman,” does have special significance. I am not the one who ignores the word of God.
It is protestants who ignore the Holy Spirit’s guidance of the church’s understanding for 2,000 years who ignore the proper sense of Scripture, and quite arrogantly so at that.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Having drifted off topic this thread is now closed.