Cardinal Burke and Grand Master Festing defied wishes of Pope Francis by sacking Grand Chancellor

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I assume there will be an investigation of Cardinal Burke over this. Perhaps a look into his role re: the dubia and making it public - which has caused scandal to the Church.
A “scandal” in having asked questions in a Church of dialogue, mercy and accompaniment? Do you see how that sounds, given the new paradigm we’re all meant to be following?

If Cardinal Burke is to be “investigated” for having asked whether Catholic teaching still applies or whether Pope St John Paull II’s Familiaris Consortio paragraph 84 and Veritatis Splendor have both been revoked, then I too should be investigated along with many other concerned and confused Catholics as he was asking the questions on our behalf. Those of us in the pews don’t have recourse to personally ask the Pope to define exactly what he is trying to teach with Amoris Laetitia, and the refusal to give a response is hardly inspiring confidence.
 
A “scandal” in having asked questions in a Church of dialogue, mercy and accompaniment? Do you see how that sounds, given the new paradigm we’re all meant to be following?

If Cardinal Burke is to be “investigated” for having asked whether Catholic teaching still applies or whether Pope St John Paull II’s Familiaris Consortio paragraph 84 and Veritatis Splendor have both been revoked, then I too should be investigated along with many other concerned and confused Catholics as he was asking the questions on our behalf. Those of us in the pews don’t have recourse to personally ask the Pope to define exactly what he is trying to teach with Amoris Laetitia, and the refusal to give a response is hardly inspiring confidence.
No one is faulting +Burke for asking questions… the beef is with making a public argument with the Pope about it after only two months.

You may not know this, but dubia were submitted to Pope JPII by Archbishop Lefebvre and he took 18 months to respond. And guess what? No hissy fit in the media. This isn’t the Jerry Springer show.
 
Lepanto Institute is a good organization. Too bad people do not have eyes to see.

And maligning Cardinal Burke at that. Shame on you guys. :mad:

Define Islamaphobic. Telling the truth about Islam? People here are so biased.
You must not have read the post… archbishop Chaput is the one who warned to stay away from Lepanto… shame on you for maligning Chaput…😡
 
Do not put words in my mouth.

I am not maligning Chaput. I think highly of him, especially knowing that he is a holy and orthodox bishop.
 
No one is faulting +Burke for asking questions… the beef is with making a public argument with the Pope about it after only two months.

You may not know this, but dubia were submitted to Pope JPII by Archbishop Lefebvre and he took 18 months to respond. And guess what? No hissy fit in the media. This isn’t the Jerry Springer show.
Agreed, it isn’t the Jerry Springer Show; it’s about the salvation of souls. Some Bishops and Cardinals are coming out in support of an interpretation of AL which contradicts the Church’s constant teaching over the past 2,000 years on the immorality of sex outside of marriage, its mortal sinfulness, reception of Holy Communion in such a state and the necessity of a firm purpose of amendment in order to receive a valid Absolution during the Sacrament of Confession.

Cardinal Burke made the dubia public after he was explicitly told the dubia were never going to be answer. What would have been the point in waiting more than 2 months when you’re told no answer will be forthcoming? Better to make the debate public before the damage to the unity of Catholic teaching is done instead of afterwards. Right now we have Bishops in one Diocese saying that the divorced and civilly remarried who engage in sex outside of a valid Sacramental Marriage are acting against the clear teaching of Christ and His Church and are placing their souls in mortal peril (the traditional teaching). In the Diocese next door that same couple is being told to carry on as they like as long as they “believe they are at peace with God” (the Maltese Bishop’s new teaching). Which is it? Clearly both can’t be true; hence the five Dubia.
 
Agreed, it isn’t the Jerry Springer Show; it’s about the salvation of souls. Some Bishops and Cardinals are coming out in support of an interpretation of AL which contradicts the Church’s constant teaching over the past 2,000 years on the immorality of sex outside of marriage, its mortal sinfulness, reception of Holy Communion in such a state and the necessity of a firm purpose of amendment in order to receive a valid Absolution during the Sacrament of Confession.

Cardinal Burke made the dubia public after he was explicitly told the dubia were never going to be answer. What would have been the point in waiting more than 2 months when you’re told no answer will be forthcoming? Better to make the debate public before the damage to the unity of Catholic teaching is done instead of afterwards. Right now we have Bishops in one Diocese saying that the divorced and civilly remarried who engage in sex outside of a valid Sacramental Marriage are acting against the clear teaching of Christ and His Church and are placing their souls in mortal peril (the traditional teaching). In the Diocese next door that same couple is being told to carry on as they like as long as they “believe they are at peace with God” (the Maltese Bishop’s new teaching). Which is it? Clearly both can’t be true; hence the five Dubia.
You’re just going to have to read AL… it’s plain as day. Each situation is different and needs to be discerned carefully with a priest. In some objective situations of sin, subjective cupability does not exist… under rare circumstances, that may open the door to the help of the sacraments… if it is determined that a state of grave still does not exist.

I’m not very bright… even I get this.

No one has suggested that all fornicators come forward to receive the Eucharist.
 
You’re just going to have to read AL… it’s plain as day. Each situation is different and needs to be discerned carefully with a priest. In some objective situations of sin, subjective cupability does not exist… under rare circumstances, that may open the door to the help of the sacraments… if it is determined that a state of grave still does not exist.

I’m not very bright… even I get this.

No one has suggested that all fornicators come forward to receive the Eucharist.
If each situation is different and needs to be discerned carefully with a priest, how do you know all fornicators can’t come forward to receive the Eucharist?
 
If each situation is different and needs to be discerned carefully with a priest, how do you know all fornicators can’t come forward to receive the Eucharist?
Frankly, I don’t concern myself with it. It’s between the priest and the individual.

Still, no one is even suggesting that.
 
You’re just going to have to read AL… it’s plain as day. Each situation is different and needs to be discerned carefully with a priest. In some objective situations of sin, subjective cupability does not exist… under rare circumstances, that may open the door to the help of the sacraments… if it is determined that a state of grave still does not exist.

I’m not very bright… even I get this.

No one has suggested that all fornicators come forward to receive the Eucharist.
I have thankyou, and there are number of unexplained aspects. Not least of which is how to interpret footnote 351, which can be understood to support the historic teaching or contradict it.

And so if we’re to take the “liberal” interpretation of AL, what has changed since Familiaris Consortio paragraph 84? Or the 1994 CDF letter on Communion for the civilly divorced and remarried? Familiaris Consortio in particular claims its teaching that the unmarried couple must live as brother and sister is based on scripture. Was Pope St John Paul II or any of the other Popes therefore wrong about the sinfulness of sex outside of marriage? Do you think the Church has been wrong for 2,000 years about its understanding of Scripture or what Christ says about divorce and adultery? Indeed, he tells the woman caught in adultery “go and sin no more” not “go, and carry on as you like”. If something was wrong in those days, it’s wrong in our days. Yes cannot become no, evil cannot become good if we live in a world with an objective morality (that’s the whole point of Veritatis Splendor). If Christ meant to teach that actually one can have sex outside of marriage in some cases, and not be committing adultery, why did he present a teaching on the indissolubility of marriage which was more conservative than that of the pharisees?

The “help of the sacraments” is already available through the Sacrament of Confession and committing to live as brother and sister. We cannot confess sins and receive a valid absolution if we have absolutely no intention of changing our ways. We simply would not be repenting of our sin, but demanding forgiveness anyway. It is a false human mercy to see that the path to salvation is hard and then not encourage somebody to take it. It’s taking the easy way out to avoid feeling bad or having to tell somebody the truth of their situation.

You state that subjective culpability may not exist in such states. But how could that new proposition actually work practically? A couple, at least one of whom is already in an existing Sacramental Marriage, engages in sexual activity with another person to whom they are not married in the eyes of God (the valid Sacramental marriage still being intact). They know that the Church teaches sex outside of marriage is mortal sin (adultery). But, somehow, it’s ok that they can carry on and ignore that? The classic example used is that the other person will leave them if they stop to have sex, which may cause the breakdown of the emotional relationship and children involved may come to economic or emotional harm. But think what is actually being suggested here; a person accepts the Church’s teachings on the immorality of sex outside of marriage and Christ’s teachings on the subject, but is forced by circumstance or another’s actions to do it… how is that anything but an abusive relationship? Why would the Church encourage people to have sex against their will? What kind of an example does such a relationship give to the children? If it’s not against the person’s will or intention, then they are culpable because they are deciding to do it of their own volition.

Also, you state “discerned carefully with a priest”. Marriage tribunals require expert involvement from multiple people, considering of evidence and strict application of theological guidance because of the danger of accidentally declaring a valid marriage invalid. If it all just comes down to the local parish Priest, we end up in the same situation with different Bishop’s teachings on AL where in one parish a couple are in mortal sin and in the next they are completely fine. How is that “Catholic” in the literal sense of the word (“universal” or “everywhere”)?

You appear to hold that these circumstances only apply in extreme cases, but that isn’t what the Bishops of Malta and San Diego are now teaching. How long before a stern rebuke is given by the CDF to condemn interpretations that one is not in a state of mortal sin if you “believe you are at peace with God”? Bishop McElroy of San Diego has also raised the question of such an interpretation of AL to those in homosexual unions. Cardinal Napier, sarcastically, raised the question about those in Africa in polygamous unions. If you’re so sure of the rationale that limits your interpretation solely to those extreme situations, why can people so easily extrapolate it into other possibly unintended areas of moral teaching?

The question all comes down to “what is the truth”. As we’ve been clearly taught over the past 2,000 years, truth is an objective fact regardless of subjective conscience or circumstance. Pope St John Paul II’s encyclical Veritatis Splendor was very clear on the dangers of a relativistic or subjective attitude to morality, and condemned it because those attitudes could never teach that some actions were always and everywhere evil actions. If conscious, premeditated and habitual sex outside of marriage can be explained away because it’s hard to keep God’s commandments, then they can be explained away in other situations, from homosexuality, to murder and abortion etc.
 
Frankly, I don’t concern myself with it. It’s between the priest and the individual.

Still, no one is even suggesting that.
Paragraph 10 of the Maltese Bishop’s application guidance for Amoris Laetitia:
If, as a result of the process of discernment, undertaken with “humility, discretion and love for the Church and her teaching, in a sincere search for God’s will and a desire to make a more perfect response to it” (AL 300), a separated or divorced person who is living in a new relationship manages, with an informed and enlightened conscience, to acknowledge and believe that he or she are at peace with God, he or she cannot be precluded from participating in the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist (see AL, notes 336 and 351).
How does that read as anything other than suggesting that the final decision is solely up to the individual in question to decide on the state and condition of their soul, and that Priests “cannot” refuse to go along with their decision? So if someone comes to Confession, the Priest is to be forced to give absolution regardless of whether the person is penitent or not, and if they come forward to receive Communion they may not apply Canon 915 (which has not been retracted since AL was published).

It’s all fine and well for you to say you hold the “only in exceptional circumstances” position, but many others are going much further than you without any apparent hesitation in exploiting the situation to change teaching as they see fit given the lack of definitive wording in AL as to the limits of this proposed change in teaching. You may be looking at this solely as a question of the specific teaching on marriage, but it’s actually about whether an individual’s subjective and fallible conscience is the ultimate arbiter of a person’s moral decisions. Or instead whether we as Catholics are called to form our conscience in accord with the commandments of God and His Church with reference to the objective moral norms of those unchangeable moral teachings.
 
Lepanto Institute is a good organization. Too bad people do not have eyes to see.
AB Chaput does not have eyes to see it?
But you are correct about speaking ill of Cardinal Burke. There is no place for that here. The Gospel today spoke of character. One of the beattitudes was a blessing on the peacemakers. By contrast, I have never trusted organizations, be it television shows or media outlets, that are noted mostly for their causing strife. Occasionally, this may occur by accident. However, when a group is characterized by disrupting peace, I am reminded that there is no spiritual gift of gossip.
 
I sincerely hope this whole fiasco did not start with the Lepanto Institute. They sure have a history.
It looks like it did.

The condom conundrum was settled business in November of 2014. Lepanto Institute revived the issue, egging Burke and Festing into disciplinary action against Boeselager.

It’s interesting that Chaput, who is no liberal at all, condemned Lepanto Institute.
 
This is a humorous example of the the Lepanto Institute’s credibility.

lepantoinstitute.org/abortion/former-satanist-i-performed-satanic-rituals-inside-abortion-clinics/

This guy comes to them with this story and they run it as true. No verification. No dates, no names, no sources. Just this guy telling a story. It’s an embarrassment to Catholics and the pro-life movement.

Burke took advice from these people?

I use the plural form cautiously. The Lepanto institute I believe is basically one guy running a website?
 
Best write up I’ve seen thus far on the Knights of Malta/Burke saga.

“The grounds for his removal were manufactured by a militant traditionalist organization close to Burke, the Lepanto Institute for the Restoration of All Things in Christ, which describes itself on its website as “dedicated to the defense of the Catholic Church against assaults from without as well as from within”

cruxnow.com/analysis/2017/01/29/popes-takeover-knights-malta-brings-chance-needed-reform/
 
Best write up I’ve seen thus far on the Knights of Malta/Burke saga.

“The grounds for his removal were manufactured by a militant traditionalist organization close to Burke, the Lepanto Institute for the Restoration of All Things in Christ, which describes itself on its website as “dedicated to the defense of the Catholic Church against assaults from without as well as from within”

cruxnow.com/analysis/2017/01/29/popes-takeover-knights-malta-brings-chance-needed-reform/
We would do well to avoid this; “militant traditionalist organization”. This sort of labeling is indicative of those who start an argument by labeling their opponent in a derogatory fashion. It is a form of Ad Hominum that creates a false narrative on which to build an argument.

Also, if one should not trust Lepanto Institute, one would also be well advised to stay away from Crux. Two sides of the same coin i believe.

And finally, we are the Church Militant. We are to guard Tradition, and we must weigh all teaching by the totality of what the Church has taught throughout Her History, staying true to the Fidelity of the magesterium.

Holy Mother of God, pray for our Bishops and Priests.
 
We would do well to avoid this; “militant traditionalist organization”. This sort of labeling is indicative of those who start an argument by labeling their opponent in a derogatory fashion. It is a form of Ad Hominum that creates a false narrative on which to build an argument.

Also, if one should not trust Lepanto Institute, one would also be well advised to stay away from Crux. Two sides of the same coin i believe.

And finally, we are the Church Militant. We are to guard Tradition, and we must weigh all teaching by the totality of what the Church has taught throughout Her History, staying true to the Fidelity of the magesterium.

Holy Mother of God, pray for our Bishops and Priests.
How many bishops have instructed the faithful to avoid Crux? Hardly two sides of the same coin…
 
Best write up I’ve seen thus far on the Knights of Malta/Burke saga.

“The grounds for his removal were manufactured by a militant traditionalist organization close to Burke, the Lepanto Institute for the Restoration of All Things in Christ, which describes itself on its website as “dedicated to the defense of the Catholic Church against assaults from without as well as from within”

cruxnow.com/analysis/2017/01/29/popes-takeover-knights-malta-brings-chance-needed-reform/
Austen Ivereigh is hardly an unbiased commentator to hold up as a model of journalistic integrity, whether he is writing for Crux or anyone else. Here in the UK he has consistently been at the forefront of partisan Catholic reporting, driving a wedge between those who he personally views as “good” Catholics and those who he views as “bad” Catholics to the point of suggesting that those who raise questions about Amoris Laetitia are, seemingly without qualification according to one of his past articles, “dissenting Catholics” who are not in good standing and are either already in or are plotting schism. He has little interest in trying to convince others of the validity of those positions he adopts, or answering the questions raised by those with opposing views who are open to debate, and instead resorts to the old “my team vs your team” approach. He would have been first in line to write polemics against St Paul when he “withstood St Peter to his face”.

If you wanted to write a list of those fomenting and worsening the “liberal-conservative” divisions in the Church today, regardless of whoever else you think would be on the list, he certainly would be.
 
We would do well to avoid this; “militant traditionalist organization”. This sort of labeling is indicative of those who start an argument by labeling their opponent in a derogatory fashion. It is a form of Ad Hominum that creates a false narrative on which to build an argument.
True about using terms, but I think its fair to say there is a pre-V2 mentality which hopes for a return to the “good old days” - despite the fact there were disagreements and controversy before V2.

What is upsetting some of these folks IMO is that they thought the two recent Pontificates were going to reverse V2. Even though neither Pope ever so declared.

These two pontificates should be looked upon as a pause in the unfolding of V2. A needed pause but one that is now over as the renewal envisioned by V2 continues to unfold anew.

Discernment of dogmas about the nature of marriage and communion and how they are evolving in the Church under Francis are a part of this unfolding of V2.

I think there will be discussion and further discernment on the nature of the priesthood, the use of contraception and more. Not all under the current Pope, but he is placing Cardinal voters in place who are open to where the Spirit is leading the Church which will likely affect the selection of future Popes.

The Lepanto Institute is something Cardinal Burke should be wary of. It is Islamophobic and maybe that is where he picked up his idea expressed in a recent interview that we (Christians, Europe) should be afraid of Islam. That totally contradicts the welcoming embrace the Pope is showing for Islam.

Too many otherwise decent and good Catholics are falling for some of these groups like the LI. Chaput has condemned this group and another which has a similar profile.

Some in the Catholic media who are otherwise rational seem to be going over the deep end over AL and Islam. One beautiful magazine I’ve subscribed to for years is writing some troubling things on these topics which is out of the norm for them.

Let’s pray for Cardinal Burke and others to truly discern AL and other current hot button issues.
 
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