Cardinal Dolan - Explaining My Decision to Serve as Grand Marshal

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Is this the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, that homosexual orientation is an objective disorder ?
I think that is just common sense. It used to be listed as a disorder in the Diagnostic and Satistical Manual of Mental Disorders (by the American Psychiatric Association) until it was taken out without explanation (and with obvious political motivation).

Of course, what you consider a disorder will depend on what you understand as order (or nature); again, a problem of anthropology.
 
Facebook page of group that will be marching in 2015.

facebook.com/OUTNBCUniversal

This is their facebook page.

There are many picturres with attached articles about gay marriage, two men getting married, two women getting married in white gowns.
 
Could you please outline the history of the number of people convicted and sent to jail for homosexual acts by governments in the Western world?

Could you please outline the history of the number of people executed for homosexual acts by governments of the western world?

Could you please link any information provided to explicit Catholic support, if it exists.

Thank you.
Well, obviously they haven’t faced the kind or extent of abuse as they have in some foreign countries.

But they’ve faced some abuse.

In connection with the thread here this summer about the “gay” wrapper at Burger King, we mentioned that some gay young people are kicked out of their homes.

And they still can (and do) get fired from their jobs in many states.

And there are incidents like this, in the news just yesterday:

nypost.com/2014/09/18/high-school-coach-tied-to-beating-of-gay-couple-resigns/

I understand that what was allegedly done is against Catholic teaching and that the Archbishop quoted in the article said that such activity is wrong.
 
I find it a bit disheartening that a Cardinal would even feel the need to explain his actions to layman.

I am a fan of the old “pray, pay, and obey”. . . . . .
 
So, while actions are immoral, identity is not! In fact, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church reminds us, people with same-sex attraction are God’s children, deserving dignity and respect, never to be treated with discrimination or injustice.
Is same sex attraction your identity? Would adultery be an identity? Would self abuse? Would anxiety? It seems to me it is not simply an identity but a position on the nature of that identity. If an anxiety group marched we would know they don’t think anxiety is a good thing and that while spreading awareness of the amount of suffering they would hope to cure people of anxiety. I think this group is promoting same sex attraction as a good thing and not something people would like to be free off.
To the point: the committee’s decision allows a group to publicize its identity, not promote actions contrary to the values of the Church that are such an essential part of Irish culture. I have been assured that the new group marching is not promoting an agenda contrary to Church teaching, but simply identifying themselves as “Gay people of Irish ancestry.”
While they may not be promoting actions contrary to Church teaching during the parade it seems to me the group does promote such actions. If a group of Irish Klansmen wanted to march would that be acceptable? Would the group only promoting Irish identity during the parade make it acceptable?
 
We speak of justice for the homosexuals in such a casual manner.

Pro life groups are not allowed to participate in the parade while displaying their banner.

womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=33234

An exception has been granted to the homosexuals, yet those who stand up against the ultimate injustice perpetrated against the most defenseless are banned.

The church is quite clear in our stance against abortion and other evils counter to life as well as the stance on sexual sins.

Cardinal Dolan should have stood up for the unborn as clearly as he stood up for the homosexuals and denounced the special exception and declined to represent the Catholic Church in the parade.

Eddie Mac
 
While they may not be promoting actions contrary to Church teaching during the parade it seems to me the group does promote such actions. If a group of Irish Klansmen wanted to march would that be acceptable? Would the group only promoting Irish identity during the parade make it acceptable?
Being a Klansman, though, is a choice. “Irish Klansmen” would be making a choice to identify with a particular political movement.

Same-sex attraction (like opposite-sex attraction) is (as far as we know) not generally fluid or changeable, certainly not easily or readily changeable.
 
We speak of justice for the homosexuals in such a casual manner.

Pro life groups are not allowed to participate in the parade while displaying their banner.

womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=33234

An exception has been granted to the homosexuals, yet those who stand up against the ultimate injustice perpetrated against the most defenseless are banned.

The church is quite clear in our stance against abortion and other evils counter to life as well as the stance on sexual sins.

Cardinal Dolan should have stood up for the unborn as clearly as he stood up for the homosexuals and denounced the special exception and declined to represent the Catholic Church in the parade.

Eddie Mac
A light uncovered. Great Point, I think St. Patrick would be pleased with an antiabortion sign, When we try to please the nature of man we usually displease God. When we blur the lines of sin we do harm to God and his children.
 
Being a Klansman, though, is a choice. “Irish Klansmen” would be making a choice to identify with a particular political movement.

Same-sex attraction (like opposite-sex attraction) is (as far as we know) not generally fluid or changeable, certainly not easily or readily changeable.
As all sex outside of marriage, it is a choice to engage in gay sex as well as straight sex. I believe it is the institution of Family and Faith we should be protecting, not every want and desire of man.
 
Ah, perspective. Ebola, ISIS, and parade logistics.

When I heard the beer companies were in or out depending on the decision of the parade committee last year (Boston and New York parades). I figured it’s my Christian duty to not support those who publicly support sinful actions (thiers or others).

However, if I was to apply that everywhere, I’d have no clothes, food, other stuff, and would have to sit (on a non-manufactured space of God’s earth) and not move, as everything man made is made by sinners.

We are to live in the world. How can our Christian example best show if we run and hide at every chance we can get to show it? No one is going to follow us to our homes and ask us why we are not there.

Sticking in the game at least gives him a platform from which to communicate to people who don’t typically see the Church. (or see it only through the lens of the media)

Perhaps his showing up changes the hearts of the group feeling the need to promote themselves.

This is bringing the Church to the people.
 
This is what I don’t understand: If I had a weakness which allowed me to be easily tempted to, say, adultery, then if I wanted to remain faithful to my spouse or to my single state in life, then I would not “celebrate” it. Even tho now fornicators and adulterers are not stones to death, beaten, or put in jail as they once were, I still don’t feel like going out and “celebrating” that either.

In fact, I would pribably do the opposite of what these groups are doing. I would avoid temptations. I would avoid acting remotely, like by flirting. Etc. I would certainly not join in with others in “advertizing” myself as a person interested in this type of sin.

I think there is a certain amount if eithe heavy naivete or disingenuity going on.
If you did not celebrate it, wave flags or draw attention to it, if you did not tell others you were gay, how could it ever be presented to the world as an alternative lifestyle; just another “modern” family, typical and accepted and the norm for society despite the fact that many sources say the % of gays are much lower than we are led to believe.
 
You might want to follow up on some of the researchers mentioned here :

virtueonline.org/no-one-born-gay
I don’t believe that changes what i said, though, that it’s generally not fluid.

I’m not suggesting that they were “born gay” because I don’t know.

That article seems to suggest that even if they weren’t “born gay,” they didn’t choose it and that it’s not easily changed.
 
If you did not celebrate it, wave flags or draw attention to it, if you did not tell others you were gay, how could it ever be presented to the world as an alternative lifestyle; just another “modern” family, typical and accepted and the norm for society despite the fact that many sources say the % of gays are much lower than we are led to believe.
Exactly. The point is that you have described what publicity or “celebration” of the state of homosexuality is, and that is certainly anti-thetical to what Catholics ought to support.
 
To be blunt, NO. Bookworm is correct. And you don’t have to look just to the past to see the persecution, but look to the Present. In Uganda and Russia just to mention a couple countries who want to criminalize homosexuality all together. In fact Uganda had even put the death penalty on the table for being homosexual!
This is not the case. Uganda had proposed the death penalty for “aggravated homosexual acts;” this has since been reduced to life in prison. Aggravated homosexual acts “include homosexual acts committed by a person who is HIV-positive, is a parent or authority figure, or who administers intoxicating substances, homosexual acts committed on minors or people with disabilities, and repeat offenders.”

Wikipedia also states: “‘offence of homosexuality’ is defined to include same-sex sexual acts, involvement in a same-sex marriage, or an attempt to commit aggravated homosexuality.” These receive a lesser penalty.

As many may recall, homosexual activity has been considered a criminal action. Osacr Wilde was imprisoned for this crime. But this was at a time when other sexual sins were criminalized, altho it did take longer to get the homosexual laws off the books.
 
I don’t believe that changes what i said, though, that it’s generally not fluid.

I’m not suggesting that they were “born gay” because I don’t know.

That article seems to suggest that even if they weren’t “born gay,” they didn’t choose it and that it’s not easily changed.
The link wasn’t meant to contradict you.

I think concepts of fluidity can be separated into at least two different time frames. Before sexual orientation is set and after it is set. I think sexuality may be more fluid before it is set.

I think concepts of **choosing sexuality **are too absolute and ultimately a red herring. I don’t know if there was ever a time I consciously chose to love my pet dog, but then that doesn’t somehow suggest I am programmed to do so.

There may be different factors in my orientation towards dogs that I could accept or ignore, If I had a bad experience with dogs previously, it could affect whether I accept to love my dog.

I think acceptance is a better word than choice in both circumstances. I think we can be oriented to accept certain emotions, especially as I have said in the more fluid time of our youth.

If we are going to stick with the word ‘choice’ perhaps we should distinguish between an explicit mental assent and a spiritual acceptance. It may well be that the environment a child is exposed to, plays a part in his spiritual acceptance of types of sexuality, especially before and during the time that sexuality develops.
 
The link wasn’t meant to contradict you.

I think concepts of fluidity can be separated into at least two different time frames. Before sexual orientation is set and after it is set. I think sexuality may be more fluid before it is set.

I think concepts of **choosing sexuality **are too absolute and ultimately a red herring. I don’t know if there was ever a time I consciously chose to love my pet dog, but then that doesn’t somehow suggest I am programmed to do so.

There may be different factors in my orientation towards dogs that I could accept or ignore, If I had a bad experience with dogs previously, it could affect whether I accept to love my dog.

I think acceptance is a better word than choice in both circumstances. I think we can be oriented to accept certain emotions, especially as I have said in the more fluid time of our youth.

If we are going to stick with the word ‘choice’ perhaps we should distinguish between an explicit mental assent and a spiritual acceptance. It may well be that the environment a child is exposed to, plays a part in his spiritual acceptance of types of sexuality, especially before and during the time that sexuality develops.
originally posted abucs;
It may well be that the environment a child is exposed to, plays a part in his spiritual acceptance of types of sexuality, especially before and during the time that sexuality develops.
I think that is a part of it. I hate to equate to a poor example, such as being overweight but many children by the time they are 4 or 5 are massively overweight and have learned eating patterns that will affect their weight and health for the rest of their life.:mad:

What I find disturbing is that I can’t post pictures on this catholic site from Out@NBC Universal facebook because their pictures are not suitable but so I guess I shouldnt be looking at their facebook page yet it is OK that Carnial Dolan marches with them in a parade.:confused:
 
I think that is a part of it. I hate to equate to a poor example, such as being overweight but many children by the time they are 4 or 5 are massively overweight and have learned eating patterns that will affect their weight and health for the rest of their life.:mad:
I also feel bad for the small kids that are overweight. Perhaps a kind word of advice to the parents might go a long way?
 
I also feel bad for the small kids that are overweight. Perhaps a kind word of advice to the parents might go a long way?
I see many very overweight parents and I often notice that their children are very thin. I think they do not want to pass down what they have had to deal with in their lives and they are concerned about their childrens’ health. Kudos to those parents who learn how to pass on good skills to their children!
 
The link wasn’t meant to contradict you.

I think concepts of fluidity can be separated into at least two different time frames. Before sexual orientation is set and after it is set. I think sexuality may be more fluid before it is set.

I think concepts of **choosing sexuality **are too absolute and ultimately a red herring. I don’t know if there was ever a time I consciously chose to love my pet dog, but then that doesn’t somehow suggest I am programmed to do so.

There may be different factors in my orientation towards dogs that I could accept or ignore, If I had a bad experience with dogs previously, it could affect whether I accept to love my dog.

I think acceptance is a better word than choice in both circumstances. I think we can be oriented to accept certain emotions, especially as I have said in the more fluid time of our youth.

If we are going to stick with the word ‘choice’ perhaps we should distinguish between an explicit mental assent and a spiritual acceptance. It may well be that the environment a child is exposed to, plays a part in his spiritual acceptance of types of sexuality, especially before and during the time that sexuality develops.
Thanks. I understand now.

My bottom line, what I always say, is that it’s not a conscious choice (at least for the vast majority) and it’s not changeable (at least it’s not easily changeable). It doesn’t really matter, from my perspective and from a Catholic perspective, whether they were “born that way” or not.

My opinion is, some people emphasize arguments that they weren’t “born that way” because then it’s a shorter step to “well, they can change” or “they chose it” and therefore all they have to do is “pray the gay away” or maybe have “conversion therapy.” We’ve seen plenty of posts from Catholics with SSA suggesting that it’s not as simple as that.
 
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