Cardinal Dolan finds common ground with Obama on guns

[styrgwillidar]

The problem some seem to have, is for anyone to voice a recognition of something needing to be done in the form of any controls. One has to overlook the mention of the culture of life, or death, so the view can be discounted as ‘moral.’

Well, I would define the problem as

• Other than treatment/access for the mentally ill, none of the proposals would reduce crime.
• They are contrary to the culture of life in that they strip the means for defense from the weak as well as making the entire population vulnerable to government tyranny in the future.

Again, PS1, you discount the over 150 million killed by their own governments last century, as well as the 1.5~3 million defense uses of firearms in the US.

 

[Lucky7]

I’m just going to make an observation here. It appears that, generally speaking, responses from PS1 (and others that tend to agree with him) seem to be calm and peaceful. The responses from those who disagree with him seem to be angry and hateful. Am I off here? If not, why is that?

I’m not sure where I stand on the whole gun-control debate because I readily admit that I do not know enough to take actual sides. However, I am more than happy to hear what Cardinal Dolan or any other bishop has to say on the matter. Like I said about 700 posts ago I once disagreed with my bishop on the Iraq War thinking I knew better. I now think twice before saying my opinion is more valid than a bishop’s when it comes to these sorts of issues.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well, I would define the problem as

• Other than treatment/access for the mentally ill, none of the proposals would reduce crime.
• They are contrary to the culture of life in that they strip the means for defense from the weak as well as making the entire population vulnerable to government tyranny in the future.

Again, PS1, you discount the over 150 million killed by their own governments last century, as well as the 1.5~3 million defense uses of firearms in the US.

The Cardinal did not exclude treatment for the mentally ill. We can also see how guns, including assault weapons, contribute to the Culture of Death, by the cheapening of life.

For me, regulating and controlling guns is part of building a Culture of Life, of doing what we can to protect and defend human life. The easy access to guns, including assault weapons, that exists in our nation has contributed towards a Culture of Death, where human life and dignity are cheapened by the threat of violence. No law, no piece of legislation, will ever be able to protect us from every act of aggression, or from the harm that can come from an individual bent on killing. But, we must do what we can to minimize the opportunities for such acts, by limiting the easy access to guns – and, I would add, by increasing funding for programs to treat those who suffer from mental illness, especially those that might lead someone to commit mass murder.

I see irony in people comparing countries with those atrocities to the US, while some post on other threads about the greatness of the US. I thank God for the blessing of being born, and able to live in, this country, with all it’s benefits. Those blessings are a part of the reason I have no qualms about making the sacrifices, some are minor inconveniences, for the ‘Culture of Life,’ as the Cardinal describes it and how it pertains to this issue. In my opinion, some take those blessings for granted when they make such comparisons.

Those comparisons seem to be politically motivated, especially when they appear, repeatedly, because an outcome of an election. The ruling government has changed political parties since the beginning of this country.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m just going to make an observation here. It appears that, generally speaking, responses from PS1 (and others that tend to agree with him) seem to be calm and peaceful. The responses from those who disagree with him seem to be angry and hateful. Am I off here? If not, why is that?

I’m not sure where I stand on the whole gun-control debate because I readily admit that I do not know enough to take actual sides. However, I am more than happy to hear what Cardinal Dolan or any other bishop has to say on the matter. Like I said about 700 posts ago I once disagreed with my bishop on the Iraq War thinking I knew better. I now think twice before saying my opinion is more valid than a bishop’s when it comes to these sorts of issues.

It’s an emotional issue, more so for some than others, even though people who voice in favor of controls is accused of acting on emotions. If the guidance is truly moral, it’s frustrating to see you might be on the wrong side.

Another possibility, could be for secular reasons, which is the rejection of any, and all, controls. The Cardinal has not called for an eradication of guns, but we see the argument against controls presented as if it is all, or nothing. That’s not the case, and probably the reason there is such a significant majority of people who are not opposed to universal background checks.

The true differences can only be addressed by those who convey the ‘anger’ or ‘extreme dislike.’

Your post reminded me of a similar observation a friend made once, and has nothing to do with this discussion, other than the similarities. A friend was watching a Protestant preacher on television and noted that most Protestant preachers ‘raised their voices’ and became ‘red faced,’ with veins showing, while giving their sermons. Then he spoke of watching the Mass, on EWTN or in person, and the calmness in which Catholic clergy gave their sermons.

 

[shipwrkd]

“I don’t pretend to be an expert on what -]should be in each specific bill/-] the speed limit should be, and I will never be an authority on -] the number of bullets that should be in an ammo clip/-] how fast a car should be designed to go, or the proper way to conduct -] background checks/-] licence examinations before selling someone a -]firearm/-] drivers licence.”

But I do think that red convertible sports cars should be eliminated and gas tanks limited to 5 gallons

.
Cardinal Dolan may have just as well said this after a series of bad traffic accidents.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

.
Cardinal Dolan may have just as well said this after a series of bad traffic accidents.

We might would very well see that type guidance if we see mass murderers take up ‘red convertibles’ and actually commit mass murders with them.

Really, they are two entirely different subjects. Vehicles and guns were designed for different purposes. The comparisons minimize the tragedies that brings gun control to the forefront of debates. Guns are at the front because they were used to cause intentional deaths. Vehicles haven’t been used the same as to create ‘mass murder.’

 

[shipwrkd]

We might would very well see that type guidance if we see mass murderers take up ‘red convertibles’ and actually commit mass murders with them.

Really, they are two entirely different subjects. Vehicles and guns were designed for different purposes. The comparisons minimize the tragedies that brings gun control to the forefront of debates. Guns are at the front because they were used to cause intentional deaths. Vehicles haven’t been used the same as to create ‘mass murder.’

It was’t posted as a comparison between guns and cars but rather as an example of someone giving an uninformed opinion.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It was’t posted as a comparison between guns and cars but rather as an example of someone giving an uninformed opinion.

The Cardinal is informed on moral matters, and knows the application of those things that take a dignity of life from people.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

I’m just going to make an observation here. It appears that, generally speaking, responses from PS1 (and others that tend to agree with him) seem to be calm and peaceful. The responses from those who disagree with him seem to be angry and hateful. Am I off here? If not, why is that?

I think it’s just the opposite.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

We see the ‘uninformed’, or ‘inexperienced,’ arguments being discussed and it brought to mind the ‘expertise’ of which those things are discussed to discount the Cardinal’s words.

What is everyone’s expertise, that expressly surpasses the Cardinal’s expertise, in what is moral and what’s not, or moral guidance and when, and what, it should be given for?

 

[shipwrkd]

We see the ‘uninformed’, or ‘inexperienced,’ arguments being discussed and it brought to mind the ‘expertise’ of which those things are discussed to discount the Cardinal’s words.

What is everyone’s expertise, that expressly surpasses the Cardinal’s expertise, in what is moral and what’s not, or moral guidance and when, and what, it should be given for?

You make a good point. There have been opinions by officers and ex officers who are as informed as The Cardinal on matters of guns. Guns,in and of themselves have no morals, the owners apply those to the gun. Shouldn’t The Cardinal be giving opinions on criminal control?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You make a good point. There have been opinions by officers and ex officers who are as informed as The Cardinal on matters of guns. Guns,in and of themselves have no morals, the owners apply those to the gun. Shouldn’t The Cardinal be giving opinions on criminal control?

*“I found myself nodding in agreement when the President said, ‘….Overwhelming majorities of Americans – Americans who believe in the Second Amendment – have come together around common-sense reform, like background checks that will make it harder for criminals to get their hands on a gun,’” the cardinal said. *

But, we must do what we can to minimize the opportunities for such acts, by limiting the easy access to guns – and, I would add, by increasing funding for programs to treat those who suffer from mental illness, especially those that might lead someone to commit mass murder.

-Cardinal Dolan

What is our expertise to guide the Cardinal on what is a moral issue, and what moral guidance should be given?

 

[Cor_Cordis]

We can also see how guns, including assault weapons, contribute to the Culture of Death, by the cheapening of life.

No “we” can’t see that because the data reveals just the opposite.

I see irony in people comparing countries with those atrocities to the US, while some post on other threads about the greatness of the US…

That makes no sense on your part whatsoever.

I thank God for the blessing of being born, and able to live in, this country, with all it’s benefits. Those blessings are a part of the reason I have no qualms about making the sacrifices, some are minor inconveniences, for the ‘Culture of Life,’ as the Cardinal describes it and how it pertains to this issue. In my opinion, some take those blessings for granted when they make such comparisons.

So you’re thankful that you live in a country where 51% of the electorate just voted TWICE for a Fabian Socialist Marxist who is hellbent on destroying the Catholic Church’s religious liberties? The same Marxist whose Party holds dear to itself the unholy political “sacrament” that abortion on demand without any restraints should be a human “right” - that’s part of those “blessings” you’re thankful for too - right?

Are you also thankful for Obama’s ultimate “health care” cost-control measures more accurately known as Death Panels?

So this is the Governing body that you’re apparently comfortable with, and which you trust your own personal safety with on matters such as gun control. Right?

Do tell.

But apparently you’re not too impressed with the past virtues that made America great?

Talk about irony.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

Another possibility, could be for secular reasons, which is the rejection of any, and all, controls. The Cardinal has not called for an eradication of guns, but we see the argument against controls presented as if it is all, or nothing. That’s not the case, and probably the reason there is such a significant majority of people who are not opposed to universal background checks. ’

Actually that’s entirely backwards. The secularists are in favor of more and more centralized control, in all matters.

Has the Cardinal stated citizens right to have guns?

But more to the point you refuse to admit: The Cardinal is giving moral support to an Administration and it’s political Party that would gladly remove all gun rights from law abiding citizens. Which is exactly why unformed people don’t trust this Administration with any more regulatory powers than they already have. Including further background checks.

 

[livingwordunity]

The problem with Obama’s position on guns is that it’s basically “do as I say, not as I do”. Obama acts as if no law applies to him.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

The true differences can only be addressed by those who convey the ‘anger’ or ‘extreme dislike.’

Your post reminded me of a similar observation a friend made once, and has nothing to do with this discussion, other than the similarities. A friend was watching a Protestant preacher on television and noted that most Protestant preachers ‘raised their voices’ and became ‘red faced,’ with veins showing, while giving their sermons. Then he spoke of watching the Mass, on EWTN or in person, and the calmness in which Catholic clergy gave their sermons.

I didn’t notice any gun control advocates on EWTN.

But I have noticed in some other circles that there are some who pretend to be the “adults” in the room while ignoring any factual data that refutes their politically motivated positions while they hide behind a false guise of phony Catholicism that is little more than Liberation Theology dressed up with a few sacraments to give it a little liturgical cred.

But fortunately they’re a dying breed in the face of the New Evangelization.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

What is everyone’s expertise, that expressly surpasses the Cardinal’s expertise, in what is moral and what’s not, or moral guidance and when, and what, it should be given for?

Well for starters, I’ve actually cited numerous sources of factual analysis.

And the numbers clearly show that more gun control cost lives.

So how much moral expertise do I need to recognize that increased gun controls are a bad idea?

Has the good Cardinal cited any stats or expert analysis?

 

[shipwrkd]

*“I found myself nodding in agreement when the President said, ‘….Overwhelming majorities of Americans – Americans who believe in the Second Amendment – have come together around common-sense reform, like background checks that will make it harder for criminals to get their hands on a gun,’” the cardinal said. *
What is our expertise to guide the Cardinal on what is a moral issue, and what moral guidance should be given?

When The Cardinal finds himself nodding in agreement with someone bent on destroying the Catholic Religion I question his expertise on an issue that I don’t believe to be a moral one at all. To own a firearm is not immoral so it should not even be considered a moral issue. If the HHS mandate had nothing to do with abortion or birth control The Church wouldn’t and shouldn’t be involved. The Church was not involved in forming our Constitution, why should it be involved in attempting to change a portion of it. I don’t think you’ll find Her messing around with the First Amendment.

Well for starters, I’ve actually cited numerous sources of factual analysis.

And the numbers clearly show that more gun control cost lives.

So how much moral expertise do I need to recognize that increased gun controls are a bad idea?

Has the good Cardinal cited any stats or expert analysis?

And this from the above post

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

When The Cardinal finds himself nodding in agreement with someone bent on destroying the Catholic Religion I question his expertise on an issue that I don’t believe to be a moral one at all. To own a firearm is not immoral so it should not even be considered a moral issue. If the HHS mandate had nothing to do with abortion or birth control The Church wouldn’t and shouldn’t be involved. The Church was not involved in forming our Constitution, why should it be involved in attempting to change a portion of it. I don’t think you’ll find Her messing around with the First Amendment.

I’m sorry, but you seem to be skirting the issue. The Cardinal has brought suit against this administration in reference to the HHS mandate, and I don’t think anyone can question his stand on life issues, like abortion or contraceptives.

The Cardinal specifically addresses the Culture of Death, caused by a cheapening of life from violence enacted through guns. Through mass murder, groups of people have lost their dignity of life, from conception until natural death. That is a moral issue, in my opinion, and one the Cardinal certainly has expertise on.

 

[msokeefe]

If we could just save one life…we should ban cars.