Cardinal Dolan finds common ground with Obama on guns

[jay29]

How can anyone say the Democrat Party is pro-life? They own abortion in the USA.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

How can anyone say the Democrat Party is pro-life? They own abortion in the USA.

It’s much worse than that, jay; The Democrats worship Abortion.

It’s their non-negotiable unholy political sacrament.

 

[jay29]

It’s much worse than that, jay; The Democrats worship Abortion.

It’s their non-negotiable unholy political sacrament.

I also heard that it is the “crowning achievement of feminism”

Catholics still vote for democrats in droves.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I guess I haven’t seen this statement from Cardinal Dolan so you’ll have to explain what is meant here. Is he calling for a total ban on the private ownership of guns? If not, why not? If he is saying that guns contribute to a culture of death then why would he not call for their total elimination?
A moral issue would seem to be one that faced us with moral choices - so what moral choice is involved here and what is the moral as opposed to the immoral option? I don’t think you distinguish between moral choices and societal problems. It is just as valid to say that cancer, which causes mass deaths, causes people to lose their dignity of life. Is cancer a moral problem? It kills vastly more people than gun violence so doesn’t that make it an even greater moral problem?

In fact neither is a moral issue because regardless of the severity of the problem there are no moral choices involved in resolving them.

Ender

That’s why I found myself nodding in agreement when the President said, “I know this is not the first time this country has debated how to reduce gun violence. But this time is different. Overwhelming majorities of Americans — Americans who believe in the Second Amendment — have come together around common-sense reform, like background checks that will make it harder for criminals to get their hands on a gun. Senators of both parties are working together on tough new laws to prevent anyone from buying guns for resale to criminals. Police chiefs are asking our help to get weapons of war and massive ammunition magazines off our streets, because these police chiefs, they’re tired of seeing their guys and gals being outgunned.” It’s also why I was very much in favor a month ago when our own New York State legislature, heeding the call of Governor Cuomo, passed NY Safe, (New York Secure Ammunition and Firearms Enforcement Act) the most comprehensive gun control bill in the country.

…

For me, regulating and controlling guns is part of building a Culture of Life, of doing what we can to protect and defend human life. The easy access to guns, including assault weapons, that exists in our nation has contributed towards a Culture of Death, where human life and dignity are cheapened by the threat of violence. No law, no piece of legislation, will ever be able to protect us from every act of aggression, or from the harm that can come from an individual bent on killing. But, we must do what we can to minimize the opportunities for such acts, by limiting the easy access to guns – and, I would add, by increasing funding for programs to treat those who suffer from mental illness, especially those that might lead someone to commit mass murder.

As you can see, the Cardinal is not saying ALL guns are contributing to the culture of death. He states, ‘The easy access to guns, including assault weapons…’

To me, the moral choices is to support legislation, as the Cardinal states, ‘…like background checks that will make it harder for criminals to get their hands on a gun.’ He doesn’t completely lay the problem on guns solely, evident when he added, ‘…by increasing funding for programs to treat those who suffer from mental illness, especially those that might lead someone to commit mass murder.’

Cancer is not a deliberate action. Picking up a gun to kill as many people as possible is deliberate. We can contribute to cancer research, we can support ‘common sense’ legislation.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

How can anyone say the Democrat Party is pro-life? They own abortion in the USA.

I don’t know of anyone that has stated that Jay?

 

[Cor_Cordis]

I also heard that it is the “crowning achievement of feminism”

Catholics still vote for democrats in droves.

That’s because those “catholics” have been seduced by the apostasy of moral relativism.

They mistakenly believe that the Gospels prohibit any and all judgements, even against intrinsically evil acts. And to that end, they exchange the responsible charitable love of fraternal correction for the easy false “virtue” of “tolerance”. Such is the byproduct of their unconscious sentimentalism.

They mistakenly believe that Christian love never involves the Cross. They believe that all suffering is senseless and as such, should be avoided rather than surrendered to as a vital avenue of Christ’s transformational Love.

They don’t even have the introspection to recognize their own self-defeating theology.

“Let all the babies be born; and then let us drown those we do not like.” - G.K.Chesterton

This is the results of 50 years worth of Liberation Theology’s insidious infection of the Roman Catholic Church in this country. But thankfully the tide is turning. There is a stark contrast between many of the old guard clergy and the new younger generation of clergy who have rediscovered the beautiful joy and liberation of Roman Catholic orthodoxy.

The schism is well under way in this country, and the Holy Spirit is already resurrecting all the ancient Truths and Wisdom of our sacred Tradition. - “… and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”

p.s. I understand their mindset intimately because I used to be one of their ilk. And I can recognize their veiled rhetoric a spiritual light-year away.

 

[jelpmac]

If the current Conclave chose Cardinal Dolan as the new Pope, would he make the Swiss Guard turn in their Sigs and H&K’s and only resort to the ceremonial ancient halbeards/pikes used when in medieval uniforms? I think not. The Vatican Army is as well trained as the Secret Service and more skilled than the Capitol Police. Heads of State are far better protected than any private citizen ever.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

Cancer is not a deliberate action. Picking up a gun to kill as many people as possible is deliberate. We can contribute to cancer research, we can support ‘common sense’ legislation.

That is a pathetic analogy.

Mental Illness is not a deliberate action either.

Mental illness causes these mass shooters to pick up a gun.

However, the gun does not cause mental illness.

We can revamp all the conventional liberal progressive notions and failures about cause/effect, treatment and containment of mental illness - without making law abiding citizens less safe with ridiculously ineffective gun laws.

The mentally ill will always find destructive weapons to inflict mass casualties.

However, the statistics CLEARLY show that the more citizens are armed, the less death and injury is possible at the hands of these lunatics.

Further regulating guns will only further increase the danger the mentally ill can inflict upon our society.

Oh and, the only part of your analogy that is relevant, is the fact that most of the money that has been poured into cancer research has been woefully ineffective.

So yes. You’re analogy does apply on that unintended level.

So there’s that.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

As you can see, the Cardinal is not saying ALL guns are contributing to the culture of death.

Well why isn’t he stating that?

What statistical data is he using to prevent him from coming to that conclusion?

After all, that is the ultimate conclusion that Obama and his Democrat minions have long ago reached. And since the good Cardinal is putting the “Culture of Life” into the hands of the Democrat’s “Culture of Death” Party, and he apparently trusts their judgement now, why doesn’t the good Cardinal just jump to that inevitable conclusion? :ehh:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If the current Conclave chose Cardinal Dolan as the new Pope, would he make the Swiss Guard turn in their Sigs and H&K’s and only resort to the ceremonial ancient halbeards/pikes used when in medieval uniforms? I think not. The Vatican Army is as well trained as the Secret Service and more skilled than the Capitol Police. Heads of State are far better protected than any private citizen ever.

There are people who argue for the good guns provide. It sounds like you are suggesting removing good, from those with legitimate authority, as stated in the Catechism. Your post brings to mind the question, ‘how many law enforcement, secret service, or even Swiss Guards, have lost control of their weapon that resulted in a mass murderer going on a rampage?’

 

[Cor_Cordis]

There are people who argue for the good guns provide. It sounds like you are suggesting removing good, from those with legitimate authority, as stated in the Catechism. Your post brings to mind the question, ‘how many law enforcement, secret service, or even Swiss Guards, have lost control of their weapon that resulted in a mass murderer going on a rampage?’

Why don’t you ask yourself, what percentage of all murders are actually committed by mass shooters with “assault” weapons?

Here’s a hint, less than 2% of all murders are committed with “assault” weapons.

Why do you want to remove good weaponry from law abiding citizens?

 

[Cor_Cordis]

Has Cardinal Dolan even heard of this?

Research by John Lott in the 2000 second edition of More Guns, Less Crime provided the first research on state and the Federal Assault Weapon Bans. The 2010 third edition provided the first empirical research on the 2004 sunset of the Federal Assault Weapon Ban. Generally, the research found no impact of these bans on violent crime rates, though the third edition provided some evidence that Assault Weapon Bans slightly increased murder rates. Lott’s book* The Bias Against Guns* provided evidence that** the bans reduced the number of gun shows by over 20 percent.** Koper, Woods, and Roth studies focus on gun murders, while Lott’s looks at murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assaults. Unlike their work, Lott’s research accounted for state Assault Weapon Bans and 12 other different types of gun control laws.

 

[msokeefe]

To me, the moral choices is to support legislation, as the Cardinal states, ‘…like background checks that will make it harder for criminals to get their hands on a gun.’ He doesn’t completely lay the problem on guns solely, evident when he added, ‘…by increasing funding for programs to treat those who suffer from mental illness, especially those that might lead someone to commit mass murder.’
QUOTE]

Increasing funding for programs to treat those who suffer mental illness…

As a retired NYPD cop, I can attest to the fact that this will not work. Mental illness is the cause of the spate of mass murder by guns. The problem is we have to start re institutionalizing the insane, and cut down on “community mental health” clinics. Those clinics are great for people with relatively minor problems or as a screening process to put people away. In the 60’s they started to shutter “insane asylums”. People are now treated in community mental health based facilities by throwing pills at them and hoping family and friends keep tabs on their medication. Anyone who needs psychotropic drugs like that due to the likely hood that they are a danger to themselves or others should be locked up.

In NY a cop, doctor or judge can forcibly remove someone who is a danger to self/others, for a 48 hr observation period. It is a catch and release program. You do not know how many times I had to take the same violent person to evaluation, because they don’t take their meds or become violent again. In some states a cop does not have the authority to do this. Conn. struck down such a law months before the Sandy Hook tragedy. In the Aurora Colorado shooting, the doctor did contact the police. The Campus police did nothing. I do not know if Colorado has a law for the police to take action.

Columbine Colorado occurred when we had an “assault weapon” ban. That didn’t work out well.

Let’s just make St. Patrick’s Cathedral a gun free zone, as well as the White House and Capitol. Remove all guns from law enforcement and executive protection. Make all guns illegal there. Criminals will stop in their tracks when they see those “gun free zone” signs.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

Let’s just make St. Patrick’s Cathedral a gun free zone, as well as the White House and Capitol. Remove all guns from law enforcement and executive protection. Make all guns illegal there. Criminals will stop in their tracks when they see those “gun free zone” signs.

That’s an excellent idea.

Make our legislative and religious elites live by the exact same real world standards they consider themselves ‘expert’ enough to inflict on the rest of us poor slobs from their ivory towers.

Let the consequences of their reckless hypothetical theories fall where they may!

Let’s see how that works out, shall we?

 

[thomasf]

That’s an excellent idea.

Make our legislative and religious elites live by the exact same real world standards they consider themselves ‘expert’ enough to inflict on the rest of us poor slobs from their ivory towers.

Let the consequences of their reckless hypothetical theories fall where they may!

Let’s see how that works out, shall we?

Yeah, this.

 

[shipwrkd]

“I found myself nodding in agreement when the President said, '….Overwhelming majorities of Americans – Americans who believe in the Second Amendment – have come together around common-sense reform, like background checks that will make it harder for criminals to get their hands on a gun,’” the cardinal said.

But, we must do what we can to minimize the opportunities for such acts, by limiting the easy access to guns – and, I would add, by increasing funding for programs to treat those who suffer from mental illness, especially those that might lead someone to commit mass murder.

-Cardinal Dolan

What is our expertise to guide the Cardinal on what is a moral issue, and what moral guidance should be given?

I’ll put more stock in The Cardinals opinion when he asks for substantiating statistics from Obama instead of the same knee jerk reaction that “we must do what we can” even at the expense of loosing rights. “Overwhelming majorities of Americans” is how many and by who’s count. No one including Obama is providing that information. If The Cardinal was provided the information, he would know that background checks are already in place. He would know that enforcing the rules already in place makes more sense then enacting more rules that won’t be enforced or will not make a difference.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

When’s the last time the USCCB and the Democrats compromised on any moral issue that didn’t result in disastrous long-term effects from reckless policies?

When?

 

[shipwrkd]

When’s the last time the USCCB and the Democrats compromised on any moral issue that didn’t result in disastrous long-term effects from reckless policies?

When?

Ummmmm,…let me get back to ya on that

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

As a retired NYPD cop, I can attest to the fact that this will not work. Mental illness is the cause of the spate of mass murder by guns. The problem is we have to start re institutionalizing the insane, and cut down on “community mental health” clinics. Those clinics are great for people with relatively minor problems or as a screening process to put people away. In the 60’s they started to shutter “insane asylums”. People are now treated in community mental health based facilities by throwing pills at them and hoping family and friends keep tabs on their medication. Anyone who needs psychotropic drugs like that due to the likely hood that they are a danger to themselves or others should be locked up.

In NY a cop, doctor or judge can forcibly remove someone who is a danger to self/others, for a 48 hr observation period. It is a catch and release program. You do not know how many times I had to take the same violent person to evaluation, because they don’t take their meds or become violent again. In some states a cop does not have the authority to do this. Conn. struck down such a law months before the Sandy Hook tragedy. In the Aurora Colorado shooting, the doctor did contact the police. The Campus police did nothing. I do not know if Colorado has a law for the police to take action.

Columbine Colorado occurred when we had an “assault weapon” ban. That didn’t work out well.

Let’s just make St. Patrick’s Cathedral a gun free zone, as well as the White House and Capitol. Remove all guns from law enforcement and executive protection. Make all guns illegal there. Criminals will stop in their tracks when they see those “gun free zone” signs.

What is it about ‘assault weapons,’ the military replicas, that attract those with a psyche like those who commit the mass murders?

When there have been ‘bans,’ were there grandfathered weapons? How is it, with bans in place, that so many were still available?

In Florida, the police and doctors can enact the Baker Act, which is 72 hour observation. On occasion, we transport them, and we have transported the same person more than once. The law states those people are to be transported by law enforcement. Being a rural area, it’s a one and a half hour trip. It took some educating for law enforcement to understand, EMS is not obligated to transport. When we do, we require law enforcement inside the ambulance with us, or to follow behind at the very least; then we are doing it as a courtesy in most instances. For these people to lose their rights, they must threaten themselves or others. Of course the system is abused, as most systems are. We’ve been called to people who have stuck their finger down their throat to throw up. That’s not exactly a life threatening problem.

When you were still active, what would you have thought about a suggestion to disarm law enforcement? That seems to be ‘cutting off one’s nose to spite their face.’ If guns truly serve a good purpose, what good purpose is it to say we should disarm those with legitimate authority, because there is talk of universal background checks, and possible bans on certain guns and magazines? No one is talking an eradication of all guns, with the exception of those who use it to motivate the ‘masses’ to their cause. I actually think some people distance themselves from that type message.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

Ummmmm,…let me get back to ya on that

Oh oh I know!

"In the 1930s, the majority of the bishops, priests, and nuns sold their souls to the devil, and they did so with the best of intentions. In their concern for the suffering of those out of work and destitute, they wholeheartedly embraced the New Deal…

In the process, the leaders of the American Catholic Church fell prey to a conceit that had long before ensnared a great many mainstream Protestants in the United States – the notion that public provision is somehow akin to charity – and so they fostered state paternalism and undermined what they professed to teach: that charity is an individual responsibility and that it is appropriate that the laity join together under the leadership of the Church to alleviate the suffering of the poor. In its place, they helped establish the Machiavellian principle that underpins modern liberalism – the notion that it is our Christian duty to confiscate other people’s money and redistribute it.

At every turn in American politics since that time, you will find the hierarchy assisting the Democratic Party and promoting the growth of the administrative entitlements state. At no point have its members evidenced any concern for sustaining limited government and protecting the rights of individuals. It did not cross the minds of these prelates that the liberty of conscience which they had grown to cherish is part of a larger package – that the paternalistic state, which recognizes no legitimate limits on its power and scope, that they had embraced would someday turn on the Church and seek to dictate whom it chose to teach its doctrines and how, more generally, it would conduct its affairs.

I would submit that the bishops, nuns, and priests now screaming bloody murder have gotten what they asked for. The weapon that Barack Obama has directed at the Church was fashioned to a considerable degree by Catholic churchmen. They welcomed Obamacare. They encouraged Senators and Congressmen who professed to be Catholics to vote for it."

Oh wait.

Never mind.