Cardinal Dolan takes issue with Gov. Cuomo's move to protect abortion

[mexolic]

Besides Cuomo, what about other Catholics who support abortion. Cardinal Dolan should remind all Catholics of the seriousness of supporting an intrinsic evil.

 

[pnewton]

Besides Cuomo, what about other Catholics who support abortion. Cardinal Dolan should remind all Catholics of the seriousness of supporting an intrinsic evil.

He said, "
“I am in a bit of consternation as to why in a time when there seems to be kind of a sobering up about these horrors of the unfettered access to abortion, why in New York we are talking about even expanding it further,”

 

[JamesCaruso]

I hear you. But how much time does he need to think over whether or not he should support the murdering of babies? Every 24 seconds a child is murdered. 55 million and counting.
Yes he is a child of God, but he is a very confused child God. And it seems the Cardinal can’t get thru to him. He has been trying, and i applaud him for that, but if the Gov isn’t going to change, enough is enough. I mean come on!
If the Cardinal was to lay down the hammer and excommunicate him, he would be taking a real stand, and showing to all Catholics that it is unacceptable to support abortion!
Yes, the Cardinal tried to help him see the light, but the Gov is not hearing it, and action needs to take place. Enough dilly dally.
If the Gov is clearly revoking his advice, and freely choosing to support abortion, the Cardinal needs to show to us that this is unacceptable as a Catholic, and excommunicate him pronto.

You and I both know that it is unacceptable for a Catholic to support abortion. In fact, I have never met a person who was confused about the Vatican’s position on abortion. If Cuomo is denied communion or excommunicated I’d be the last one to say it is unjust, but I doubt seriously it will have the positive effect you are hoping for. It may even have the opposite effect.

Yes, he and Pelosi and all the other “Catholics in name only” get elected by Catholic voters. That is not because Catholics are unsure of the Church’s position. They don’t care what the Church’s position is. They hide behind a number of rationales. “My conscience is clear,” they say. “Abortion is not the only issue to consider in an election,” they say. “Women do have a right over their own body,” they parrot. “More Catholics disagree with the Church than agree,” they proclaim, as if the Church were a democracy.

Some few may think twice if he is excommunicated (or denied communion), and others might consider him a victim, a martyr, at the hands of a Church that is still in the Dark Ages (in their estimation, not mine).

I figure that Cardinal Dolan alone is accountable to God for whatever he decides in this matter. I’m sure if God wanted me to make the decision, he would have put me in his job. I do feel it is right for me to support my parish priests, my bishop, Cardinal Dolan and Pope Francis, whether I like their leadership styles or not and whether I like their decisions and judgments or not. Are we entitled to our opinions? But of course! Is it helpful to be voicing our dissenting views? Unless asked, I don’t think so. There are times when it is useful, necessary, and right to dissent. I don’t think this is one of them. But as always, YMMV. Peace and good will.

 

[JamesCaruso]

OK. well if I were Cardinal Dolan, and i was speaking with Mr. Cuomo, i would quote Jesus, Mark 9:38-42 “‘Teacher,’ said John, ‘we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he wasn’t one of us.’ ‘Do not stop him,’ Jesus said, ‘No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward. And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.’”

Little ones can pertain to aborted babies right?

Well, nobody is causing little ones to sin, they’re killing them, but I do understand what you mean. It is not far fetched to believe that Dolan does quote Cuomo scriptures.

The problem in our world is that our culture has been busy mis-forming our consciences from birth. So many Catholics believe that their defiance of the Church is righteous. They are brainwashed by our culture of death and sin.

These are the end times when men (most of them claiming Christ as their Savior) call evil good, and good evil. I’m thinking of abortion being considered, God help us, as a woman’s health problem. I also have in mind the petition to the White House to have the Catholic Church’s position on homosexuality deemed “hate speech”. A society can be no more reprobate than to call what is wrong right, and what is right wrong. It makes dialogue nearly impossible, but it’s not in the Christian DNA to quit. When it seems hopeless, continue on. Continue to engage in reasoned discussion, citing to errant Catholics the biblical sources for our beliefs. And I can give you a good reason to persevere; consider the words of Monsignor R,H,Benson: “If a sinner merely drove God away by his sin, we could let such a soul go. It is because – in St. Paul’s terrifying phrase – the sinful soul holds Christ, still crucifying him and making him a mockery (Heb 6:6), that we cannot bear to leave it to itself.”

 

[ishii]

ishii;10770894:

JamesCaruso;10770793:

Right now I believe Dolan’s response is in the making, first trying to persuade his friend, then forced to lay down the law as a last resort. I see nothing in the character of Cardinal Dolan that is wishy washy, although that is your perception and that of others in this matter. Be patient. It’s coming. As for the Catholics who vote for Pelosi, Cuomo and the like, many who vote pro-choice no matter what happens to cuomo, in fact, they may consider him a martyr for the cause in denied communion. If he turns, some may turn with him, but if he is merely denied communion, I don’t think that will wake up many who are pro choice. They are already in full and complete defiance of the Church and they know it. I’m sure they’re hanging their hat on the conscience escape clause. I have to go to a meeting right now, but this is an interesting discussion, and I understand where you are coming from. I mean, how long should we remain patient-- when do we cross the line of giving comfort to the enemy, so to speak? I’m just siding with being patient for the time being, but I could be wrong. I would be totally disheartened if our Cardinal turned out to be more politician than apostolic. I simply can’t believe that is the case. And maybe I’m putting it in too stark terms. Later. Peace.

What you’re saying sounds reasonable enough. I am not so much concerned about who is or isn’t denied communion. I have observed archbishops being politicians and pragmatic for years. It is within that context that I make my comments of Cardinal Dolan. Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt.

It never ceases to amaze me in America how many people view their freedom of speech as a license to sit in judgment over Bishop Dolan and other leaders of the Church. I am not totally surprised at the lack of reading comprehension and the reading into the statement. That is what the media thrives on. But judgment is not a matter of democracy. Consider:

1. Bishop Dolan spoke against the expansion of abortion.
2. He said the the Cuomo’s action in relationship with his faith was something he would have to talk to him about (turkey).
3. A spokesman clarified that this did not mean that Bishop Dolan said Cuomo was not a Catholic in good standing (excommunicated). This spokesman made a factual true statement.

This is all that really happened. Anything else is either the media leading people around or rash judgment.

I am not sure which post you’re responding to, but if its in response to my post, I would remind you of the following:

Pro-abortion politicians - have been given a platform to campaign, and the legitimacy that comes from being invited to archdiocesan events with no opposition from any bishops. In California Barbara Boxer - the most unapologetic pro-abortion politician around was able to campaign on archdiocesan grounds (at a union candidate forum - that included Democrat candidates). In Seattle, everyone was encouraged to come listen to Emily’s List hero Chris Gregoire speak at an archdiocesan sponsored event. Emily’s List helps ensure pro-life candidates are defeated and pro-abortion candidates elected. Chris Gregoire is Catholic. I asked if inviting Gregoire out to speak at a Catholic event would possibly be counter-effective in helping Catholics understand the importance of voting pro-life -consistent with Catholic teaching. The answer I got was…“Chris Gregoire isn’t speaking about abortion so its okay. blah, blah, blah.” Mush. On the one hand, the Catholic bishops speak out in favor of pro-life issues. Then they turn around and give pro-abortion politicians a free pass. This contributes to the moral confusion among Catholic in the US, and is probably one reason why so many Catholics don’t know that shouldn’t vote for pro-abortion politicians. Anyway, it is within this context that I criticize Cardinal Dolan’s comments regarding Cuomo. The “Cuomo and I have a disagreement on this issue, but we agree on other women’s issues” seems to me to be a response that contributes to moral confusion at a time when we need moral clarity.

Why do so many US bishops equivocate and/or seem weak when confronted with Democrat pro-abortion politicians? Allow me to speculate: I believe that so many bishops were basically dyed in the wool Democrats from way back and they just can’t bring themselves to criticize their own party effectively. They seem to view the Democrat party as if it is still the 1950’s and the Democrat party is the party of the “worker” and the “little guy.” And so when a good liberal statist Democrat comes to speak, the tendency is to downplay their abortion position and play up their “social justice” position - on immigration, war, and “working families.” And the environment. The unborn take a backseat to those issues.

And to correct you, I am not judging Cardinal Dolan, but his response and choice of words. I don’t judge anyone personally, just their actions. My comments aren’t “rash judgement” but criticism based on observations of other US bishops over the years.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

He said, "
“I am in a bit of consternation as to why in a time when there seems to be kind of a sobering up about these horrors of the unfettered access to abortion, why in New York we are talking about even expanding it further,”

Wow. “in a bit of consternation regarding Cuomo’s abortion policies.” Well golly gee. Maybe Cuomo is proposing this greater access to abortion bill in NY because THAT IS WHAT DEMOCRATS DO . Ya think? The comment from Dolan seems to be very strange - almost like he just doesn’t get why Cuomo would do such a thing. In truth, why would we be surprised when a Democrat proposes more abortions in the aftermath of the recent trial of Gosnell? Promote abortion is what Democrats do. And its also what Democrat Catholics do. Democrat first, Catholic second.

Ishii

 

[Lucky7]

Wow. “in a bit of consternation regarding Cuomo’s abortion policies.” Well golly gee. Maybe Cuomo is proposing this greater access to abortion bill in NY because THAT IS WHAT DEMOCRATS DO . Ya think? The comment from Dolan seems to be very strange - almost like he just doesn’t get why Cuomo would do such a thing. In truth, why would we be surprised when a Democrat proposes more abortions in the aftermath of the recent trial of Gosnell? Promote abortion is what Democrats do. And its also what Democrat Catholics do. Democrat first, Catholic second.

Ishii

And it is also evidence that talking turkey just isn’t working. How long do we continue doing something that is apparently ineffective?

 

[Lucky7]

Yes it is (totally against the faith). So is adultery, gossip, lying, theft, and many other things. Yet somehow sinners are still allowed to be Catholics. The problem is with the phrase “good standing.” I take this to mean that they are still in communion with the Church, as in not excommunicated.

I believe your definition of what it means to be a Catholic in good standing is flawed:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=765766&highlight=catholic+good+standing

The apologist defines it as someone who can receive the sacraments, not just someone who isn’t excommunicated.

So not all of the sins listed would qualify as someone who is not in good standing.

 

[pnewton]

I believe your definition of what it means to be a Catholic in good standing is flawed:

The question at hand has **nothing **to do with being in an irregular marriage. (what Fr. Serpa addressed) That is a whole different topic. You have to take my definition within the context of the thread and the discussion, not bring in something that I did not mean to address and call it a flaw. This is the “flaw” of proof-texting.

What I said about the list I gave was that they are totally against the faith. Some of them would bar one to the Sacraments some would not, as would any mortal sin.

The question is better asked what the questioner meant by the phrase. I do not know if there is an official definition. I still like mine. My thinking is not flawed. It is different. I also found two parish websites that define it as keeping the precepts of the Church.

 

[pnewton]

And it is also evidence that talking turkey just isn’t working. How long do we continue doing something that is apparently ineffective?

We? I do not think we are to take on the role of a bishop. Surely there is nothing wrong with you taking any action you deem appropriate.

 

[larsont7]

Yes it is (totally against the faith). So is adultery, gossip, lying, theft, and many other things. Yet somehow sinners are still allowed to be Catholics. The problem is with the phrase “good standing.” I take this to mean that they are still in communion with the Church, as in not excommunicated.

This fallacious reasoning keeps coming up again and again and again. There is a HUGE difference between one who sins and one who supports and promotes sins. If Cuomo was standing up and saying that faithful Catholics are free to commit adultery with a clean conscience, I would be saying the same things about him.

And when it comes to abortion, an evil that massacres millions of children every year, the Church needs to take an even stronger stand. The fact of the matter is that many “Catholic” politicans are leading the fight for the right to commit mass genocide in this country, and it needs to stop. The only ones who can make it stop are the leaders in the Church, and they are failing miserably.

 

[markomalley]

This fallacious reasoning keeps coming up again and again and again. There is a HUGE difference between one who sins and one who supports and promotes sins. If Cuomo was standing up and saying that faithful Catholics are free to commit adultery with a clean conscience, I would be saying the same things about him.

And when it comes to abortion, an evil that massacres millions of children every year, the Church needs to take an even stronger stand. The fact of the matter is that many “Catholic” politicans are leading the fight for the right to commit mass genocide in this country, and it needs to stop. The only ones who can make it stop are the leaders in the Church, and they are failing miserably.

Speaking of “Catholic in Good Standing,” did he ever get an annulment from Kerry Kennedy? Is he still shacked up with Sandra Lee?

I wonder if Joseph Zwilling considered that in his statement that Cuomo would be a “Catholic in Good Standing” despite supporting abortion.

 

[Lucky7]

The question at hand has **nothing **to do with being in an irregular marriage. (what Fr. Serpa addressed) That is a whole different topic. You have to take my definition within the context of the thread and the discussion, not bring in something that I did not mean to address and call it a flaw. This is the “flaw” of proof-texting.

What I said about the list I gave was that they are totally against the faith. Some of them would bar one to the Sacraments some would not, as would any mortal sin.

The question is better asked what the questioner meant by the phrase. I do not know if there is an official definition. I still like mine. My thinking is not flawed. It is different. I also found two parish websites that define it as keeping the precepts of the Church.

Actually, the first sentence the apologist wrote was a general definition of “good standing”. Then he applied it to the OP’s specific circumstances. Obviously someone who is excommunicated is not in good standing. I would argue that he/she has no standing. My point is that one does not have to be excommunicated to be in poor standing (which is what you were implying with your definition).

 

[Lucky7]

We? I do not think we are to take on the role of a bishop. Surely there is nothing wrong with you taking any action you deem appropriate.

Obviously I didn’t mean “we” as you and I, I meant “the Church”. But I suspect you knew that.

 

[Lucky7]

Speaking of “Catholic in Good Standing,” did he ever get an annulment from Kerry Kennedy? Is he still shacked up with Sandra Lee?

I wonder if Joseph Zwilling considered that in his statement that Cuomo would be a “Catholic in Good Standing” despite supporting abortion.

No, I don’t believe he did get an annulment…but you bring up a good point.

Maybe the media should ask Bishop Hubbard whether Cuomo is a Catholic in good standing.

 

[JamesCaruso]

And it is also evidence that talking turkey just isn’t working. How long do we continue doing something that is apparently ineffective?

That is entirely up to Cardinal Dolan and Pope Francis, the only two who have authority so far as I know to act. Whether it is being effective or not, while I see no outward signs as yet, I am in no position to judge what is going on in the Governor’s heart. I can say that I am eternally grateful for the long-suffering on the part of Jesus Christ on my behalf before I finally came to my senses in the pigsty way back when. I am praying for just such a change of heart on the part of Governor Cuomo. If it is never to happen, like with Pharaoh of old, no one can say we didn’t try. Please, Governor, let go of this obstinacy/ignorance/pride (whatever it is) in the face of God’s truth and repent. So many souls are falsely bolstered in defiance of the love of God by your bad example. Save yourself and the souls of many who follow you by accepting the gentle love of God into your heart. The souls of countless victims of abortion cry out for justice from the holocaust they have endured and pray for an end to the coldblooded murder of defenseless, unborn infants. I place you under the mantle of Holy Mary if you will accept her motherly care. Amen.

 

[Lucky7]

That is entirely up to Cardinal Dolan and Pope Francis, the only two who have authority so far as I know to act. Whether it is being effective or not, while I see no outward signs as yet, I am in no position to judge what is going on in the Governor’s heart. I can say that I am eternally grateful for the long-suffering on the part of Jesus Christ on my behalf before I finally came to my senses in the pigsty way back when. I am praying for just such a change of heart on the part of Governor Cuomo. If it is never to happen, like with Pharaoh of old, no one can say we didn’t try. Please, Governor, let go of this obstinacy/ignorance/pride (whatever it is) in the face of God’s truth and repent. So many souls are falsely bolstered in defiance of the love of God by your bad example. Save yourself and the souls of many who follow you by accepting the gentle love of God into your heart. The souls of countless victims of abortion cry out for justice from the holocaust they have endured and pray for an end to the coldblooded murder of defenseless, unborn infants. I place you under the mantle of Holy Mary if you will accept her motherly care. Amen.

New York’s Timothy Cardinal Dolan made it clear this morning that if Gov. Cuomo proceeds with his plans to strengthen state abortion laws, he will face the wrath of the Catholic Bishops.

“I am going to hope that the better natures prevail here, but boy if you come out you can expect us to be as vociferous and rigorous as possible in our opposition to this,” Dolan said during an interview with an Albany radio station Tuesday. “I hope we don’t go there.”

When (not if) Cuomo goes through with this bill, we’ll see just what Bishop Hubbard/Cardinal Dolan does in response. Maybe things need to get worse before we see some action.

 

[Lucky7]

Why do so many US bishops equivocate and/or seem weak when confronted with Democrat pro-abortion politicians? Allow me to speculate: I believe that so many bishops were basically dyed in the wool Democrats from way back and they just can’t bring themselves to criticize their own party effectively. They seem to view the Democrat party as if it is still the 1950’s and the Democrat party is the party of the “worker” and the “little guy.” And so when a good liberal statist Democrat comes to speak, the tendency is to downplay their abortion position and play up their “social justice” position - on immigration, war, and “working families.” And the environment. The unborn take a backseat to those issues.

Don’t forget they’re also in a political battle over the HHS Mandate.

By the way, where does that stand?

 

[Lucky7]

Generally I’m pretty confused by this whole discussion of a " Catholic in Good Standing" and Cardinal Dolan’s/Joseph Zwilling’s comments because of the following:

Conspirators who incur the excommunication can be defined as those who make access to the abortion possible. This certainly includes doctors and nurses who actually do it, husbands, family and others whose counsel and encouragement made it morally possible for the woman, and those whose direct practical support made it possible (financially, driving to the clinic etc.).

So doesn’t every pro-abortion politician “make access to abortion possible”? And then wouldn’t that automatically mean that they are automatically excommunicated? Which then means they should not be receiving communion?

Am I missing something here? Isn’t this pretty clear?

 

[Holly3278]

I am glad to see Cardinal Dolan speaking out.

However, don’t you just love how the New York Daily News used an image of Cardinal Dolan which makes him look like an aggressive bully? [sarcasm off] I doubt that it was a simple mistake in choosing such an image of him.