Cardinal Dolan Visits New York Mosque

[markomalley]

DOCTRINE THEN

I made it bigger

Grazie

 

[SirStephen]

With respect, it is not doctrine that the RCC holds that Catholics worship the same god as Islam. Taken from a note I recently read (footnotes excluded):

The central concern of Lumen Gentium was not the status of Muslims. In the entire 77 page document, Lumen Gentium dedicated one sentence to Muslims: “In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.” With respect, Lumen Gentium does not say that Muslims “hold the faith of Abraham” but rather that they “profess to hold the faith of Abraham.” This may be because the conflicts between the Abraham of the Torah and the Ibrahim of the Qur’an have yet to be fully worked out, possibly because of the “enmity and hatred forever” the Qur’an attributes to Abraham is Surah 4. Lumen Gentium is silent on Islam, the Qur’an, and Muhammad. This was not a drafting oversight. Treatment of Islam in Lumen Gentium is consistent with the other two Vatican instruments that speak to Muslims: Paragraph 3 of Nostra Aetate and Paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. In each instance, reference is made exclusively to Muslims (not Islam). Also, of the Vatican II instruments, it is not Lumen Gentium that is primarily concerned with relations with non-Christians but rather the “Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, better known as Nostra Aetate. Yet, even with two paragraphs allocated to the topic, Nostra Aetate was likewise not primarily concerned with Muslims either. As Pope Benedict explained, the primary intent behind Nostra Aetate “was to draft a declaration on relations between the Church and Judaism, a text that had become intrinsically necessary after the horrors of the Shoah.” Possibly because of the overburdened emphasis placed on the language of Nostra Aetate with regard to Islam, the Vatican began rolling back the authority of Nostra Aetate. Starting in May 2012 when Vatican Cardinal Walter Brandmuller commented on a book he wrote with Vatican Bishop Agostino Marchetto titled Pope Benedict XVI’s Keys for Interpreting Vatican II, the Cardinal twice stated that Nostra Aetate “did not have binding doctrinal content” and that its canonical nature was “non-binding.” Later in October 2012, in his reflections on Vatican II, Pope Benedict spoke of a structural weakness with regard to Nostra Aetate when writing that “a weakness of this otherwise extraordinary text has gradually emerged: it speaks of religion solely in a positive way and it disregards the sick and distorted forms of religion which, from the historical and theological viewpoints, are of far-reaching importance.”

 

[KEP1983]

And yet the Church has made no statement on the Mormons but they have on Islam.

Muslims do worship the same God but, like Baptists, evangelicals, Lutherans, Sikhs, and Buddhists they should be brought into communion with the Church.

Incorrect. The Vatican has officially declared that Mormon baptisms are invalid, because their conception of God is incorrect. (They deny the Trinity and do not believe that God is the Creator of the Universe, but rather believe “God” is a glorified human who lives on the planet Kolob.) Therefore Mormons don’t worship the same God.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html

 

[KEP1983]

It is dogma that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God. That is the basis for a great deal of commonality I think.

Do you believe that the teaching of the Church is wrong on this matter?

Why do liberals always insist on saying Vatican II said things that it never actually said? We have the internet now, we can actually look for ourselves.

Vatican II said “”[Muslims] profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."""

If I said that “Kermit Gosnell professes to care for the unborn,” does that mean that Gosnell ACTUALLY cares for the unborn? Do you understand the difference between “profess” and “do”?

Muslims can only be said to worship the same God in that they worship the Creator of the Universe. The same can be said of many Pagans such as Aristotle or Plato; Jews, Sikh’s, Baha’i, some Hindu’s, and many other types of religions or even individuals.

 

[SirStephen]

From the earlier posting, the reference was not to Surah 4 but rather to Surah 5:64 as it refers Allah demanding enmity and hatred of the Jews:

The Jews say: “Allah’s hand is tied up.” Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the blasphemy they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth of His bounty as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they ever strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief. (Qur’an 5:64)

If there is interest, I can get the Verse regarding Abraham as well. Needless to say, the Abraham of the Old Testament does not seem to be the same Abraham as the one in the Qur’an and hadith. Hence, “profess” to believe in …

 

[SirStephen]

On the specifically Catholic, if one is Catholic, isn’t that person, as stated in Dominus Iesus, supposed to “ firmly believe that, in the mystery of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of God,” and that “the doctrine of faith must be firmly believed which proclaims that Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary, and he alone, is the Son and the Word of the Father,” and that “to introduce any sort of separation between the Word and Jesus Christ is contrary to the Christian faith” and finally that “it is likewise contrary to the Catholic faith to introduce a separation between the salvific action of the Word as such and that of the Word made man.” Now this is doctrine and stated as such.

For Muslims, the Qur’an is the “Uncreated Word of Allah,” and it constitutes direct divine revelation. The Allah of Islam directly contradicts the Jesus of Christians. Hence in Surah 5, the most authoritative Surah on the relations of Muslims with non-Muslims (because it is the final word on the issue), Allah, the “Same God” says it is blasphemy to say “Allah is Christ the son of Mary” and then warns Muslims not to be friends with either Christians or Jews:

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: “Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.” (Qur’an 5:17)

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. (Qur’an 5:51)

Then, later in Surah 5, in rapid fire, the Allah that is the “Same God” does a full-on assault on Christ by having Christ state that concept of the Trinity will doom one to hell, that the very concept of Trinity is blasphemy, and that Jesus was only a Messenger:
They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, - Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. (Qur’an 5:72)

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (Qur’an 5:73)

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their daily food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (Qur’an 5:75)

Later in the same Surah, Allah has Jesus deny his Sonship in clear terms:
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right to say. Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, ‘worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord’; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. (Qur’an 5:116-117)

If one is to be serious about the “Same God” issue, one must, with reason, explain how it is that the Allah of Islam can be the same as the God of the Old and New Testament while at the same time giving the Islamic position its full measure and respect while addressing the clear intentional contradiction without engaging in a contradiction. Can the Allah of Islam that absolutely denies Christ be the same God that has the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit)? The “Same God” narrative violates the law of non-contradiction: you cannot be an apple and not an apple at the same time. To argue that Islam is confused or got certain elements wrong is to deny Islam its own definitions.

 

[Filii_Dei]

I live in a country with a significant Muslim presence, but I don’t understand why some Westerners are so keen to emphasise that Christians and Muslims somehow worship the same God. How does it foster good relations? It does nothing to change the fact that their beliefs and practices are not Christian. Unless you follow up with efforts at evangelisation and conversion, such concepts have absolutely no impact on their chance for salvation. Their (and our) only hope is in Jesus Christ, and that is what we should be proclaiming. Via, Veritas, Vita.

 

[ringil]

Why do liberals always insist on saying Vatican II said things that it never actually said? We have the internet now, we can actually look for ourselves.

Vatican II said “”[Muslims] profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."""

If I said that “Kermit Gosnell professes to care for the unborn,” does that mean that Gosnell ACTUALLY cares for the unborn? Do you understand the difference between “profess” and “do”?

Muslims can only be said to worship the same God in that they worship the Creator of the Universe. The same can be said of many Pagans such as Aristotle or Plato; Jews, Sikh’s, Baha’i, some Hindu’s, and many other types of religions or even individuals.

“they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Second part of the quote. I guess I could have enlarged it and made it blue but I was too lazy.

Muslims and Christians worship the same God and Muslims have an imperfect understanding of Him.

 

[Carolus_Martell]

The Cardinal is way of base, he still has the mind set of the social engineers of the 60’s that poisoned our Church and the world view of a child. We are in the fight of our life and Islam IS the enemy…

…and here he is Rodney King-like saying …‘why can’t we all just get along’?

Leadership like this make me want to hurl.

 

[ringil]

The Cardinal is way of base, he still has the mind set of the social engineers of the 60’s that poisoned our Church and the world view of a child. We are in the fight of our life and Islam IS the enemy…

…and here he is Rodney King-like saying …‘why can’t we all just get along’?

Leadership like this make me want to hurl.

I’d bet my bottom dollar that this Prince of the Church knows a thing or tow about theological matters and social implication related to his actions.

He has the grace of Teaching Authority. Unless you are a Bishop you do not.

Layman need to learn their place.

 

[SirStephen]

“they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Second part of the quote. I guess I could have enlarged it and made it blue but I was too lazy.

Muslims and Christians worship the same God and Muslims have an imperfect understanding of Him.

While it is not my desire to be needlessly critical, how is one to argue with such an unreasonable comment - unreasonable because it defies reason. Either the Qur’an is the “Uncreated Word of Allah” in which case Allah said it and this is the God (god?) Islam properly understands when they worship him or it is not the Same God. If it is the Same God, then Islam is correct and Judaism and Christianity have been abrogated (Qur’an Verse 3:85) and Jesus really did deny his divine nature. This is simply asking one to adhere to the most basic laws of logic, the law of non-contradiction (or, if you prefer, the law of the excluded middle). There is also the doctrine put out in the Declaration against indifferentism – Dominus Iesus – against some of the thinking underlying the postmodern manner of understanding the nature of Christian revelation. With respect to the entire component of the Church that has sunken into the postmodern way of thinking, a way of thinking that seeks to reduce all faith to meaninglessness, when did Islam give you permission to define the nature and quality of its (Islamic) doctrines and revealed sources such that you give yourself permission to say, on behalf of the Muslim World, and Allah (who you said is in error in His own revelations), that “Muslims and Christians worship the same God and Muslims have an imperfect understanding of Him.” This level of sheer denial does not come cost free. While western Catholics are giving voice to such illogical (and therefore unreasonable) narratives, co-religionist, Christians, are being persecuted at record numbers, 100,000 killed last year for their faith according to the Church’s own counting, along with the calculated buildup to the extermination of the Jews – the primary (and real) object of Nostra Aetate. It is because Allah declared jihad against Jews and Christians precisely because of their unbelief (with priests and rabbis falsifying their sacred texts to cover up prophesies of the coming of Muhammad) –
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Qur’an 9:29)

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (Qur’an 9:30)

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). (Qur’an 9:31)

• that Mohammad, in sacred hadith whose status is on par with the Gospels of the New Testament, could tell fellow Muslims of the sacred duty to kill all the Jews -
  The Prophet said, “The hour of judgment will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. It will not come until the Jew hides behind rocks and trees. It will not come until the rocks or the trees say, ‘O Muslim! O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him. Except for the gharqad, which is a tree of the Jews.
• and that at the end of days, that Jesus – a follower of Muhammad - will return to kill the Jews and throw all Christians to hell for refusing to convert (actually, in Islamic parlance “to revert”) to Islam –
  Al-Bukhari and Muslim said, the messenger of Allah said, quote, by the one in whose hand is my soul, soon the son of Miriam will descend upon you as a just judge. He will break the cross and kill the pigs and abolish the jizyah and money will become abundant till no one will accept it.

– continued –

 

[SirStephen]

– continues –

The problems is not just that Muhammad disclosed this in sacred hadith, but also that the call to kill the Jews is taught in grades schools in the Middle East and is part of Article VII of the Hamas Covenant and that Jesus’ return is cited as authority in both the section on jihad in the leading text of Islamic law in English and Major Hasan cited it in his briefing as part of his effort to explain why he would kill his fellow officers, which he later did at Fort Hood. As explained by Islamic law - Reliance of the Traveller, Book O “Justice,” 9 “Jihad,” at § o9.8 explains the end of days scenario –
The time and place for which is before the final descent of Jesus (upon whom be peace). After his final coming, nothing but Islam will be accepted from them, for taking the poll tax is only effective until Jesus’ descent, which is the divinely revealed law of Muhammad. The coming of Jesus does not entail a separate divinely revealed law, for he will rule by the law of Muhammad. As for the Prophet’s saying,

“I am the last, there will be no prophet after me,”

this does not contradict the final coming of Jesus, since he will not rule according to the Evangel, but as a follower of our Prophet.

This IS the Islam revealed by Allah through His most perfect Messenger. There is nothing here that is erroneously cited or misrepresentative either of what Allah revealed or what we are seeing and hearing throughout the world today. The denial is 1930s-esque. It seems that when one plays the game of sidestepping the actual revelations of Allah and falling back on a few lines from Vatican II that are forced to be understood through a postmodern filter that demands a self-negating interpretation not intended by the drafters (in support of a construct that is demonstrably untrue no less), one necessarily does injury to both reason and truth. If, as you say, Muslims have an “imperfect understanding of Him (God),” then it is because they have a perfect understanding of what was revealed to them by Allah. It’s just this simple, you either believe Jesus is the only Son of the Living God, or you believe Allah when he affirms that Jesus never said such a thing. In this lay two definitions of god that are so profoundly oppositional, that acceptance of the one necessarily brings with it a denial of the other. There is no misunderstanding here, just purposefully confused thinking. Come to think of it, didn’t Jesus say he was reason and truth?

Incidentally, the comment on the Cardinal’s teaching authority is inappropriate in this discussion as such authority does not extend to this type of issue. As with the Magisterium, the Cardinal’s teaching office, and hence authority, “is to give as authentic interpretation of the word of God, whether in its written form (sacred scripture), of in the form of Tradition. The Magisterium ensures the Church’s fidelity to the teaching of the Apostles in matters of faith and morals (85, 890, 2033).” CCC

 

[SirStephen]

A POINT OF CLARIFICATION - when stating above “the primary (and real) object of Nostra Aetate,” it was not meant to suggest (as it seems it does) that the extermination of Jews was the intent of Nostra Aetate, but rather simply that the reason Nostra Aetate was written was to address relations with the Jews. This should have been stated in clearer terms than how it was stated. Apologies!

 

[pnewton]

DOCTRINE THEN

I made it bigger

Bigger and redder doesn’t make it othodox, smarter, more logical, or in anyway better. In fact, I have a theory from my internet experience that the amount of truth is inversly proportional to font changes, font size and the number of colors used.

The unavoidable thing is that the Cardianal is, as bishop, a teacher of doctrine. The remark he made was in concert with Catholic Church doctrine. It has been reitereated by Popes and in the Catechism. Rejecting this teaching is rejecting Church doctrine. However, it really is a small doctrine and hardly an endorsement of Islam. It is truly feignt praise that there is little more that can be said to be held in common. We could just as easily point out that Satan knows more of God than they do.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Except that the Muslim god bears no resemblance to the Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - that we Catholics believe. Unless Jesus Christ is somehow no longer considered God, I don’t know how anyone can reconcile this statement with Catholic theology.

A couple of ways.

God the Father, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, is the same God that is worshiped by Christians, Jews and Muslims.

Secondly, whether you believe in him or not, God is God and is the same God.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

That is my concern. I am not judging the Cardinal for his attendance, but i am concerned about the message his statements send to the Faithful from a Doctrine and Dogma point of View. Ecumenism as I understand it is to work at returning the separated brethren to the Fullness of Christ in the Catholic Church, and leading the lost to Christ. This is the aspect of Ecumenism that I have trouble with, are we to simply accept other religions as valid, and merely seek whatever points we can agree on? Or are we to Bring the World to Christ Jesus and His Church? Muslims refute Christ, and Follow Mohamed as God’s primary Prophet. How can we justify that fact with:
" [6] Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me." Gospel of St. John; Ch. 14

If you want to bring people in, if you want to bring people closer, and if you want to have a productive dialog, then you start with the points you agree on. You don’t start with the differences, that just turns people away.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I’d bet my bottom dollar that this Prince of the Church knows a thing or tow about theological matters and social implication related to his actions.

He has the grace of Teaching Authority. Unless you are a Bishop you do not.

Layman need to learn their place.

 

[Pulvis]

If you want to bring people in, if you want to bring people closer, and if you want to have a productive dialog, then you start with the points you agree on. You don’t start with the differences, that just turns people away.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, except just what do the Church and Muslims who are faithful to the teachings of Mohammed agree on? From what i have read in the English translations of the Qur’an, there is not anything in agreement between Sacred Scripture and the writings of Mohamed. I see compromise and a refraining of attempting to teach the Muslims the error in their theology. I cannot see the Charity in allowing them to continue on in abject error. When St. Paul evangelized the Romans, He started with the Idol to the unknown God, then Preached the Gospel of Christ Jesus. All i see here is an “I’m OK, You’re OK” kind of acceptance with no evangilization. Am I missing something?

 

[shocktrooper]

It does not conflict with Catholic theology, which I am sure Cardinal Dolan is well-versed in. He said it is the same God, not that the Muslims were correct in everything they believe about God. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had some incorrect beliefs about God. I am sure in heaven, we too will learn that much of what we think we know of God is mistaken. Yet, the core belief is all correct. God is still one. When dealing with a transcendent God, inaccuracy is unavoidable.

Knowing the revealed difference between the Muslim god and the Christian God, and considering that V2, Cardinal Dolan, you and most others seem to think that they are the same, how can we say, then,m that any faith does not pray to the same God as us. Are we to conclude that Hindus and all other pagan faiths pray to the same God as us just because there is one God? So if someone prays to a cow, then their prayers are really directed towards the one true God, correct?

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never believed something about God that was divinely revealed to them, unlike Muslims.

 

[je333]

patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2013/06/cardinal-dolan-makes-first-visit-to-new-york-city-mosque-you-love-god-we-love-god/

The cardinal asked questions about the Muslim faith and emphasized throughout his visit how much the two religions and their members have in common.
“You love God, we love God and he is the same God,” the cardinal said of the Muslim and Roman Catholic faiths.

He likened Muslims to earlier waves of Roman Catholic immigrants who some 150 years ago faced the same challenge of “how to become loyal, responsible, patriotic Americans without losing their faith.”

Thoughts? Please be civil.

This should be done more often among various religions not only by cardinals but also by priests and nuns and lay people alike.