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shocktrooper
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The Catholic Church cannot have a dogma that defines another religion’s beliefs. She can only define her own and others can accept or decline.
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shocktrooper
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The Catholic Church cannot create a doctrine that defines the belief of another faith. Those other faiths have their own doctrines and teachings.DOCTRINE THEN
I made it bigger
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Carolus_Martell
Guest
Anyone that thinks seriously that Christians and Muslims worship the same God or that we can all just get along and sing Kum ba yah together has Dolanite for brains. You’re thinking emotionally not critically.
Get use to it, oil funded radical Islamists along with our quisling Government officials that God is punishing us with in collusion with your free spirited …‘why can’t we be friends’… Dolanites will bring Civilization as you know it to a halt.
Get use to it, oil funded radical Islamists along with our quisling Government officials that God is punishing us with in collusion with your free spirited …‘why can’t we be friends’… Dolanites will bring Civilization as you know it to a halt.
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SirStephen
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In fact, Allah categorically denies man in the image of God. This blowback is counterfactual and anti-intellectual. It is also neither reasonable nor rational. In this, when speaking of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses, it should be pointed out that, just like with Jesus, the Qur’an completely redefines who those individuals were including through direct revelation from Allah that they were neither Jews nor Christians, but rather they were all Muslims. I don’t object to Cardinal Dolan meeting with Muslims at any mosque and making positive “get-along” statements that advance the cause of peace, etc, but there are element of faith that are non-negotiable that should not be made fodder for “getting along.” At the end of the day, a Muslim who is faithful to Islam believes in jihad against non-Muslims, including Catholics - BECAUSE THEY ARE CATHOLIC. On this last point, its not as if we are not seeing this play itself out throughout the world. Just ask the African Cardinals!
Not only is Shocktrooper correct about the fact that the RCC does not do doctrine on the inter se faith issues of other - especially non-Christian - religions, but as noted earlier, the Vatican came out in 2012 and stated that Nostra Aetate was NOT doctrine and Pope Benedict also stated that there were problems with how it has come to be understood. That is why I included the citation from the Catechism or the Catholic Church in the earlier post. Nostra Aetate was NEVER written to be a statement of Church doctrine and it is inapporpriate to cast it as such - especially in light of comments from the Vatican and P B16 in 2012 in this regard. Rather, Nostra Aetate was a positively stated aspirational declaration on the willingness and desire of the Church to move forward primarily in its relationship with the Jewish community, with the other faiths added to avoid turbulence for not being likewise designated in such a document. It truly concerns me how much and how forceful is the blowback against those who point out the purposeful contradiction between the nature of the Allah of the Qur’an and the God of the Old and New Testament - as these competing concepts of god cannot, by their own definitions, be the same.
In fact, Allah categorically denies man in the image of God. This blowback is counterfactual and anti-intellectual. It is also neither reasonable nor rational. In this, when speaking of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses, it should be pointed out that, just like with Jesus, the Qur’an completely redefines who those individuals were including through direct revelation from Allah that they were neither Jews nor Christians, but rather they were all Muslims. I don’t object to Cardinal Dolan meeting with Muslims at any mosque and making positive “get-along” statements that advance the cause of peace, etc, but there are element of faith that are non-negotiable that should not be made fodder for “getting along.” At the end of the day, a Muslim who is faithful to Islam believes in jihad against non-Muslims, including Catholics - BECAUSE THEY ARE CATHOLIC. On this last point, its not as if we are not seeing this play itself out throughout the world. Just ask the African Cardinals!
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larsont7
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Well said, SirStephen. I especially liked your last sentence regarding the African Cardinals that are just trying to survive the onslaught brought upon them by the Muslims in those areas. I doubt you’d ever hear one of them say that the God of Catholicism and the god of Islam are in any way compatible. If we want to find similarities between Catholics and Muslims, we’d be better off by just saying “we’re all homo sapiens, after all”.
I will say this for Cardinal Dolan. He came out with a strong statement against the Supreme Court’s decision against DOMA and Prop 8 in California. Unfortunately, I believe it’s too little too late. Much more could have, and SHOULD have been done to prevent this travesty.
I will say this for Cardinal Dolan. He came out with a strong statement against the Supreme Court’s decision against DOMA and Prop 8 in California. Unfortunately, I believe it’s too little too late. Much more could have, and SHOULD have been done to prevent this travesty.
meltzerboy
New member
I heard Cardinal Dolan’s statement as well. Even though I don’t always agree with him, he consistently defends the Church and its moral values, and I respect him for that.
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shocktrooper
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After reading my own statement later, I realized the bolded line does not make sense. I meant to say…
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never believed something about God that was contrary to what was divinely revealed, like Muslims faithful to Islam. Islam rejects Divine Revelation concerning God. This is much different from the situation and faith of Abraham.
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tomarin
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Apparently Cardinal Dolan hasn’t read the New York Times best-selling author Robert Spencer.
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EnglishTeacher
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Yes. This.I live in a country with a significant Muslim presence, but I don’t understand why some Westerners are so keen to emphasise that Christians and Muslims somehow worship the same God. How does it foster good relations? It does nothing to change the fact that their beliefs and practices are not Christian. Unless you follow up with efforts at evangelisation and conversion, such concepts have absolutely no impact on their chance for salvation. Their (and our) only hope is in Jesus Christ, and that is what we should be proclaiming. Via, Veritas, Vita.
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Cojuanco
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There are many means to evangelize to others. Not all of them involve speaking necessarily. And how do you know that the assertion that we worship the same God might not be a starting point on the road to their conversion?
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CatholicGeek1
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As I said before, you have to start somewhere. And as myself and others have pointed out, one thing that we have in common is that we worship the same God. The muslims do so imperfectly, but it is at least a place to start.
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CatholicGeek1
Guest
You are misunderstanding what is being said. There is one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He is recognized by the Jews, Muslims, and Christians. This is what people are referring to when they say that we worship the same God.
We know that it is not a cow in the sky.
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CatholicGeek1
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Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter to some people. There is a group of people that believe Muslims are bad. They are not really interested in converting them. They are not interested in dialog. They are only interested in finding and making points that support their own beliefs.
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pnewton
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Easy. That is why we have the Holy Spirit leading the Church as the living body of Christ instead of every individual trying to think these things through. I mean, if seeing the difference between God and a cow is tough, we can always just listen to the Church.
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SirStephen
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Because the statement does not mean the same thing to a Muslim as it does to a Jew or Christian. Muslims believe it is the same god because Allah abrogated Judaism and Christianity - which is why Allah no longer recognizes the validity of these “once formerly valid” but now abrogated religions (and I can cite Islamic law on exactly this point). Leaders in the Muslim community know what they believe and also know that Jews and Christians who fall into that gooey “interfaith dialogue” narrative of “Same God” are compromised the moment they do so because it forces a contradiction against interest. Its not the Imams who have gone wobbly and postmodern in their understanding of the requirements of their faith. However, they do need malleable “can’t we all get along” religious leaders from other camps to help them to soften up the faiths of those in the communities they are supposed to represent. In Islamic parlance, this is called “submission” because once “getting along” becomes more highly valued than ones faith, it all becomes a simple issue of reeling in the hooked. And this IS the game!
It is not, as you say, “a starting point” if it means compromising ones own faith as a condition of entering the discussion. The law of identity is based on the law of non-contradiction and the law of the excluded middle (if you are an apple, then you are an apple / if you are an apple, then you are not not an apple). As it relates to Christians and Muslims, one can either believe the Allah of Islam when He states, in Qur’an Verse 9:30, that:
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Or in Jesus as defined by Christians where it states in John 14:6:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
These two citations side by side make the very important point that there is in fact NO HALFWAY between the two divine revelations. Allah directly and specifically refuted what Jesus said in John - even including the word play on “Truth”. When meeting halfway - as a starting point - what did YOU compromise and what did they? ANSWER: the divinity of Christ for both of you but which is only a loss for the Christian. This is not an appeal to faith but rather to reason. It is not reasonable to hold that Jesus is the Son of God (and hence the Truth) while also maintaining at the same time that those who so believe are also deluded away from the Truth because of that belief.
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SirStephen
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I think you are misunderstanding. If you read the Qur’an and Hadith, Allah redefined who Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (and Christ were) and it is to THAT understanding that you either knowingly or not are assenting to. You are the one sidestepping the issue by simply asserting that Muslims have an imperfect understanding of the “same god” - thereby redefining Islam (but only in your own mind) to make your otherwise illogical paradigm work.
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SirStephen
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If you are referring to my comments, I backed them us with quotes from Islamic sources, including the Qur’an such that they argue strongly that what I put out goes substantially beyond mere assertion of belief. I can objectify my arguments and in fact did. You are now the one making ad hominem attacks. I am arguing for integrity in the debate. There is nothing in what I said that argued against trying to convert anyone or against dialogue.
If you want to point out any erroneous claims, go for it. I can assure you that I can back up everything stated using recognized Islamic sources … and if I refer to Vatican II, I’ll get it right and not just speak to the “spirit of V2.”
Speaking of something purposefully put out as doctrine, what of Dominus Iesus?
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SirStephen
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Not for nothing, this is a link to the website of Shayk bin Bayyah, an Egyptian Muslim Brother who just visited the White House and will visit the ADAMS center in Northern Virginia. This is what he states, in his fatwa is the status of Christians: binbayyah.net/english/2012/01/19/christians-in-the-hereafter/
Some here may want to do a little research on this guy. Warning, if you do, you will wonder why he was even allowed in this country - let alone the White House. There is little question, however, that his reasoning is doctrinal.
Some here may want to do a little research on this guy. Warning, if you do, you will wonder why he was even allowed in this country - let alone the White House. There is little question, however, that his reasoning is doctrinal.
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SirStephen
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I would like to point out from the last message, one could easily associate Bayyah with IUMS, a Muslim Brotherhood entity founded by Yusuf Qaradawi, the chief jurist of the Muslim Brotherhood, and from there associate it with exactly the the people the USCCB does outreach with – by name – and who run the MSAs (Muslim Student Associations - known Muslim Brotherhood entities) that populate Catholic universities and colleges across the country. In fact, Morsi joined the MB while going to USC when joining the MSA there.
This is important, because bin Bayyah (and others) were at the White House discussing, among other things, assistance for the Syrian Rebels - our allies(?). I could have sent the actual clip of the beheading but settled instead for just the Catholic Online article (that has a link to the killing) of a Syrian bishop: catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=51537 Please note the applause!
The question to ask is whether this type of activity is licit in Islamic law and the answer is that of course it is. In fact, in some circumstances it is required as a mandate from Allah as stated in the Qur’an. Are we being asked to support this in the name of religious liberty? So, the question is now being restated, and as this my come across as flip I can assure you that I am deadly serious (and trying to hit the danger klaxons as hard as I can): is the God that sees the Martyrdom of the Bishop the same god that see the murderers as fighting jihad in the path of Allah? My prayers are with the Bishop. Before saying that this is extremism or radicalized behavior, I will ask you by what text of published Islamic law you would make such a claim - and ask you to please limit yourself to what is published by recognized Islamic sources for the benefit of an Islamic audience. As already posted in an earlier entry in this string, just one verse before Allah said Christian were “deluded away from the Truth” for believing Jesus to be the Son of the Living God," Allah explicitly made open jihad against Christian and Jews (“even if they are People of the Book”) the object of jihad.
This is important, because bin Bayyah (and others) were at the White House discussing, among other things, assistance for the Syrian Rebels - our allies(?). I could have sent the actual clip of the beheading but settled instead for just the Catholic Online article (that has a link to the killing) of a Syrian bishop: catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=51537 Please note the applause!
The question to ask is whether this type of activity is licit in Islamic law and the answer is that of course it is. In fact, in some circumstances it is required as a mandate from Allah as stated in the Qur’an. Are we being asked to support this in the name of religious liberty? So, the question is now being restated, and as this my come across as flip I can assure you that I am deadly serious (and trying to hit the danger klaxons as hard as I can): is the God that sees the Martyrdom of the Bishop the same god that see the murderers as fighting jihad in the path of Allah? My prayers are with the Bishop. Before saying that this is extremism or radicalized behavior, I will ask you by what text of published Islamic law you would make such a claim - and ask you to please limit yourself to what is published by recognized Islamic sources for the benefit of an Islamic audience. As already posted in an earlier entry in this string, just one verse before Allah said Christian were “deluded away from the Truth” for believing Jesus to be the Son of the Living God," Allah explicitly made open jihad against Christian and Jews (“even if they are People of the Book”) the object of jihad.
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Usbek_de_Perse
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Does the Jewish God?
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