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Ohana
Guest
My understanding is that Doctrine can change, although it does so slowly and rarely. Dogma on the other hand, does not and cannot.
Cardinal Kasper: Sacraments for remarried divorcees only in "special cases"
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eightydeuce82
Guest
Tim
Thanks for you comment. I am actually very knowledgable of scripture and catholic teaching. I am a catholic, I am confirmed and i do study theology in the catholic tradition. Im playing devils advocate here. What I get when I ask people about this stuff is exactly what ive gotten from Cutler and im just questioning this is all.
I am well with in my catholic commitments and am in great standing with rome as is my Bishop.
If you will im just practicing and trying to get a feel for what others think and how they react to different opinions. these different opinions just happen to fit into my life because I have been posed the same questions by family and have been at a losss to explain them…Maybe a little more info on me is needed. I did mention that I am about to finish my masters in philosophical Theology…I am also trying to become a Deacon we will see how that works out…very long process…how is one supposed to debate the faith with out posing these serious questions to fellow catholics. Although we all have one voice we all still havevarring opinions and interpretations on things dispite how much Cutler emphasizes rome.
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CutlerB
Guest
From my understanding, it can deepen, which is what “development of doctrine” means. That “development”, however, can never contradict a previous teaching.
Oh, I haven’t really emphasised Rome at all. Where did I mention Rome? Once, in the question about your standing.
If you’re playing Devil’s Advocate, OK. You were successful in getting replies, no doubt. I take it, then, you get lots of truthful answers from others.
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TMC
Guest
Why does everyone think the other guy’s sin is the one unforgivable one, while their own is not a big deal?
I think a lot of those advocating “send them to Hell” as the only pastoral response to the remarried will be feeling a bit chagrined when the Church finally gets around to publishing this particular change.
Denying communion to the remarried is not an unchangeable dogma, or even a doctrine. The Church can change it tomorrow and probably will. Yeah, they will give some cover by saying that the parish priest has to make an individualized determination or something like that, but it will be understood that the rules have changed. The Church doesn’t change things willy-nilly, but the Church does make changes from time to time, and has done so since the very beginning.
I think a lot of those advocating “send them to Hell” as the only pastoral response to the remarried will be feeling a bit chagrined when the Church finally gets around to publishing this particular change.
Denying communion to the remarried is not an unchangeable dogma, or even a doctrine. The Church can change it tomorrow and probably will. Yeah, they will give some cover by saying that the parish priest has to make an individualized determination or something like that, but it will be understood that the rules have changed. The Church doesn’t change things willy-nilly, but the Church does make changes from time to time, and has done so since the very beginning.
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CutlerB
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Orogeny
Guest
Are you referring to anyone in particular or some hypothetical “everyone”?
Can you point to ANYONE who has suggested that the “only” pastoral response is to “send them to Hell”?
I’m interested in an example of the Church over-riding the words of Christ. Links are very useful, but if you must, you can copy and paste (just remember to give your source!).
Or are you just playing devil’s advocate?
Peace
Tim
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Robert_Bay
Guest
MODERATOR REMINDER
Please charitably discuss the issues, not each other
Please refrain from attacking clergy or anyone else for that matter
Please charitably discuss the issues, not each other
Please refrain from attacking clergy or anyone else for that matter
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eightydeuce82
Guest
I have been resurected!!! Just kidding go on lol…
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Cojuanco
Guest
Right. I have no idea why His Eminence thinks it’s a particularly novel Idea when what he describes is already in place.
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eightydeuce82
Guest
I think he was saying what I was saying before. Doctrine can and does and will change. When Burk Dies and someone else replaces him and the sacrament is given to remarried people im sure you all will say the teaching was never contradictory at all.Are you referring to anyone in particular or some hypothetical “everyone”?Can you point to ANYONE who has suggested that the “only” pastoral response is to “send them to Hell”?I’m interested in an example of the Church over-riding the words of Christ. Links are very useful, but if you must, you can copy and paste (just remember to give your source!).
Or are you just playing devil’s advocate?
Peace
Tim
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McCall1981
Guest
These Cardinals have also said that the Church is not going “change” this teaching (in addition to Burke and Kasper):
Card Muller (Prefect of the CDF)
Card O’Malley (of the Council of Cardinals)
Cardd Pell (of the Council of Cardinals)
Card Meisner
Card Brandmuller
Card Re
Card Quevedo
Add to this that card Meisner said Pope Francis told him in private that “divorced and remarried people cannot receive communion”
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Joe_5859
Guest
I can understand why this is a difficult issue for people. Divorce and remarriage is the type of sin where it’s not that easy to turn back the clock and straighten things out.
With other sins, it can be a lot easier from a “Catholic-in-good-standing” perspective. Fornication? Confess and you’re good to go. Masturbation? Confess and you’re good to go. Theft, murder, drunkenness? Confess and you’re good to go.
With divorce and remarriage, though, it’s not that simple. And it’s quite easy for the under-catechized Catholic or potential convert to end up in a situation that is very complicated before that desire for Christ comes to the forefront. And then what? They go through the annulment process, which can take 12-18 months. That can be multiplied when considering multiple marriages. And if the petition is denied, then what? Do they divorce their current spouse (with whom they have spent years and years and have raised children with) to go searching after and attempt to reconcile with their previous spouse (who is probably unwilling and may even have also remarried)? Even if that were possible, it would create even more heartache and pain.
I know the answer is Confession and continence. But I can understand why people in these situations can feel overwhelmed and confused. There are not many sins that require the same amount of effort to overcome. Working this out with one’s pastor is always the way to go. It is hard. There’s no sugar-coating that. But I think there’s much spiritual reward to be gained through the process.
With other sins, it can be a lot easier from a “Catholic-in-good-standing” perspective. Fornication? Confess and you’re good to go. Masturbation? Confess and you’re good to go. Theft, murder, drunkenness? Confess and you’re good to go.
With divorce and remarriage, though, it’s not that simple. And it’s quite easy for the under-catechized Catholic or potential convert to end up in a situation that is very complicated before that desire for Christ comes to the forefront. And then what? They go through the annulment process, which can take 12-18 months. That can be multiplied when considering multiple marriages. And if the petition is denied, then what? Do they divorce their current spouse (with whom they have spent years and years and have raised children with) to go searching after and attempt to reconcile with their previous spouse (who is probably unwilling and may even have also remarried)? Even if that were possible, it would create even more heartache and pain.
I know the answer is Confession and continence. But I can understand why people in these situations can feel overwhelmed and confused. There are not many sins that require the same amount of effort to overcome. Working this out with one’s pastor is always the way to go. It is hard. There’s no sugar-coating that. But I think there’s much spiritual reward to be gained through the process.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Taking a step back, I think it’s good to remind ourselves that all we have is this one report of some of the things that Cardinal Kasper said, who was one of 60 some cardinals who gave addresses. And, if the article is to be believed, his purpose was more to raise questions rather than answer them.
So we need to be careful about drawing too much from all this.
So we need to be careful about drawing too much from all this.
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eightydeuce82
Guest
As always Joe comes through but when you get this response
There already is a procedure for remarried divorcees to receive the Sacraments, stop living in sin. Remember, receiving communion will do them no good if they continue to commit adultery and end up in Hell for eternity. We might pat ourselves on the back at how wonderfully inclusive we are being, how kind we are being, but we might find ourselves in Hell next to them for failing to preach repentance. This whole conversation issues forth from the false premise of universalism.
Its nothing anyone wants to hear…You make a good point going to your priest is a good thing but it doesnt change the hard line of the above statement. The priest isnt going to go against rome. the thing that the holy people in rome need to realize is does allowing all other sins to be confessed and pennance taken turn people away or bring them to the church? Now you have the marriage conundrum that offers little movement…this has turned so many away from walking with christ in his church…im not sure thats the right thing to do.
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China123
Guest
Interesting thread now that I have read the whole.
For myself, when the statement came out that the Church would be looking into the divorced/remairried Catholic stance, I just assumed it would be a procedural thing. Annulments are costly and very, very long for most. I thought there might be some streamlining or help to tribunals in the process to make it easier, perhaps, than it had been in the past. I never thought it would be a change in the teaching. The teaching makes perfect sense to me and can’t be changed anyway. Seems people are always quick to try and change the teachings of Holy Mother Church
My dad and mom were married in the Catholic Church. My dad converted before marrying my mother so they could be married in the Church (personal decision from my dad). After 23 years of marriage my dad filed for divorce and re-married in the Methodist church. My mom did not want the divorce but there we have it. Is that her fault? No. Her pastor came to talk to her and told her she had done nothing wrong and she was welcome to receive the sacraments (including communion) and was still in good standing. She might have been worried about this and asked him, not sure. The priest also asked if she wated to start the annulment process to which she declined. She believed her marriage to be valid in the eyes of God and the Church and told him that. He told her to continue going to mass and receiving the sacraments. If she decided that she wanted to date again or remary she would need to go through the annulment process.
She remained single until she passed away a few years ago. I asked her one time why she didn’t want to remarry again or date and she said she was not able to according to her understanding and that was ok. She said she would remain faithful to God’s teachings.
Sometimes I think we really have an authority problem in the modern world.
For myself, when the statement came out that the Church would be looking into the divorced/remairried Catholic stance, I just assumed it would be a procedural thing. Annulments are costly and very, very long for most. I thought there might be some streamlining or help to tribunals in the process to make it easier, perhaps, than it had been in the past. I never thought it would be a change in the teaching. The teaching makes perfect sense to me and can’t be changed anyway. Seems people are always quick to try and change the teachings of Holy Mother Church
My dad and mom were married in the Catholic Church. My dad converted before marrying my mother so they could be married in the Church (personal decision from my dad). After 23 years of marriage my dad filed for divorce and re-married in the Methodist church. My mom did not want the divorce but there we have it. Is that her fault? No. Her pastor came to talk to her and told her she had done nothing wrong and she was welcome to receive the sacraments (including communion) and was still in good standing. She might have been worried about this and asked him, not sure. The priest also asked if she wated to start the annulment process to which she declined. She believed her marriage to be valid in the eyes of God and the Church and told him that. He told her to continue going to mass and receiving the sacraments. If she decided that she wanted to date again or remary she would need to go through the annulment process.
She remained single until she passed away a few years ago. I asked her one time why she didn’t want to remarry again or date and she said she was not able to according to her understanding and that was ok. She said she would remain faithful to God’s teachings.
Sometimes I think we really have an authority problem in the modern world.
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CutlerB
Guest
Thanks for that.
Indeed, I read that the other day too.Very true, which is why I really hope the Synod will clear matters up in a way people understand.
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Orogeny
Guest
That doesn’t answer the request I made to TMC.
And back to the question I asked you previously, what man is authorized by God in scripture to dissolve a sacramental marriage?
Peace
Tim
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
Obviously it’s possible. No one said it would be easy. That’s why there’s confession. But not even trying to stop sinning is a problem.Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn’t have to do it himself, huh?
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TMC
Guest
Given the chastisement by the moderator, I will decline to call out individual posters, but you can read for yourself.Are you referring to anyone in particular or some hypothetical “everyone”?Can you point to ANYONE who has suggested that the “only” pastoral response is to “send them to Hell”?I’m interested in an example of the Church over-riding the words of Christ. Links are very useful, but if you must, you can copy and paste (just remember to give your source!).
Or are you just playing devil’s advocate?
Peace
Tim
As to “over-riding the words of Christ,” can you point me to where Christ said that the Church should deny communion to the remarried for all time? I am familiar with his statements about divorce, but I didn’t catch his express instruction to deny sacraments on that basis.
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TMC
Guest
I agree with you as to Cardinal Burke, but I read Cardinal Kasper as saying exactly the opposite - both most recently and in his prior public statements about divorce.
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