Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

[MaryT777]

The Pharisees were about moral superiority and being happy they aren’t like those sinners over there, they preferred legalism over sanity. People who “just as well leave LGBTQ folks alone to their own devices” lack the legalism and moral superiority complex that characterized the Pharisees.

Is your post misworded by chance? Maybe you meant have instead of lack?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Is your post misworded by chance? Maybe you meant have instead of lack?

Are you fluent in English?

 

[MaryT777]

Are you fluent in English?

 

[MaryT777]

I second that. The post is confusing as written.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I second that. The post is confusing as written.

It is confusing if you do not know very much if anything about the Pharisees. Reading Mark 2, Matthew 23 and Luke 18 will hopefully give you enough knowledge on the Pharisees to understand my comment.

 

[OraLabora]

It is confusing if you do not know very much if anything about the Pharisees. Reading Mark 2, Matthew 23 and Luke 18 will hopefully give you enough knowledge on the Pharisees to understand my comment.

Oddly enough I had no trouble understanding it as written. I also happen to agree.

 

[TCEL]

There are many reasons people cannot attend Mass. Caring for the sick or disabled, being old and not able to drive anymore, the distance one lives from a Catholic Church, or not having a vehicle to get there. I remember when I was living in the city. The bus that took me to the church was 1 hour apart. I could take the early bus and get there 50 mins early, or the later bus and arrive 10 mins. late. I took the late bus. Soon the priest noticed I was always 10 min. late and mentioned this in the sermon. He noticed how some of us arrived late every Sunday. I felt bad. When my dad was old he could not drive anymore, fortunately he was able to find a house close to the church so he could walk. These are not mortal sins. I am sure they mentioned this in your religion class also.

Yes, they did mention those circumstances in my classes. They mention them in the Catechism as well. I thought it apparent that I meant instances such as deliberate refusal to go, or laziness, or whatever.

 

[JosieN]

Oddly enough I had no trouble understanding it as written. I also happen to agree.

The question I asked was this

“How is it like accusing the anarcho-communismists of being the real Nazis, or least the people behind the Nazis rise to power and eventually the revolution and war? I find this comparison very interesting.”

The answer this person gave was this

“The Pharisees were about moral superiority and being happy they aren’t like those sinners over there, they preferred legalism over sanity. People who “just as well leave LGBTQ folks alone to their own devices” lack the legalism and moral superiority complex that characterized the Pharisees”

It did not have anything to do with my question but I read it to be polite anyway and highlighted the parts that were confusing. The person wrote the Pharisees preferred “legalism over sanity”. Were they not sane because of their legalism? Then I highlighted the part where it said the people with the moral superiority complex over the LGBT lack the legalism that characterized the Pharisees. If you are trying to make a point, please read it over before you post. It would have made sense if they said "have " instead of 'lack"as this is confusing.

I understand the Pharisees acting superior to the rest of the people, but that was not in the original question.

 

[OraLabora]

The question I asked was this

“How is it like accusing the anarcho-communismists of being the real Nazis, or least the people behind the Nazis rise to power and eventually the revolution and war? I find this comparison very interesting.”

The answer this person gave was this

“The Pharisees were about moral superiority and being happy they aren’t like those sinners over there, they preferred legalism over sanity. People who “just as well leave LGBTQ folks alone to their own devices” lack the legalism and moral superiority complex that characterized the Pharisees”

It did not have anything to do with my question but I read it to be polite anyway and highlighted the parts that were confusing. The person wrote they preferred “legalism over sanity”. Were they not sane because of their legalism? Then I highlighted the part where it said the people with the moral superiority complex over the LGBT lack the legalism that characterized the Pharisees. If you are trying to make a point, please read it over before you post. It would have made sense if they said "have " instead of 'lack"as this is confusing.

I understand the Pharisees acting superior to the rest of the people, but that was not in the original question.

Joie stated that the Pharisees preferred legalism over sanity. They did this by ignoring human nature by just piling on more arcane rules to follow, and by things like chastising Jesus for healing on the Sabbath while allowing one to rescue a stranded animal on the Sabbath.

Joie then said that those who just leave the LGBQT alone don’t have the legalism and sense of moral superiority of the Pharisees. I sort of feel I’m in that position as I have my own sins to worry about before condemning theirs. With respect to the LGBQT, I want to see them in the Church, not out, where they can start a genuine process of inner conversion. That won’t happen if we try to use vinegar, rather than honey, to attract them.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

The question I asked was this

“How is it like accusing the anarcho-communismists of being the real Nazis, or least the people behind the Nazis rise to power and eventually the revolution and war? I find this comparison very interesting.”

The answer this person gave was this

“The Pharisees were about moral superiority and being happy they aren’t like those sinners over there, they preferred legalism over sanity. People who “just as well leave LGBTQ folks alone to their own devices” lack the legalism and moral superiority complex that characterized the Pharisees”

It did not have anything to do with my question but I read it to be polite anyway and highlighted the parts that were confusing. The person wrote the Pharisees preferred “legalism over sanity”. Were they not sane because of their legalism? Then I highlighted the part where it said the people with the moral superiority complex over the LGBT lack the legalism that characterized the Pharisees. If you are trying to make a point, please read it over before you post. It would have made sense if they said "have " instead of 'lack"as this is confusing.

I understand the Pharisees acting superior to the rest of the people, but that was not in the original question.

I was attempting to rerail the conversation as there was no particular significance in the comparison other than them being diametrically opposed to each other.

 

[TCEL]

The general point is when someone has been hurt by Christians in the name of Christianity you don’t save their souls by berating them, you have to get them to trust you, to establish rapport before they will care what you have to say. If you start the conversation by talking like the people who hurt them, they will disregard what you have to say at best.

There is no overlap there, it’s like accusing anarchocommunists of being the real Nazis.

I wasn’t aware I had said anything berating or against Church teaching. I completely agree about establishing rapport. Jesus was most interested in the person for him/herself. That doesn’t mean I’m going to deny my identity as a follower of Christ, should it come up, or try to bend with what’s culturally cool. Though it would make life easier. Though I certainly may succumb to cowardice, like Peter.

 

[MaryT777]

I wasn’t aware I had said anything berating or against Church teaching. I completely agree about establishing rapport. Jesus was most interested in the person for him/herself. That doesn’t mean I’m going to deny my identity as a follower of Christ, should it come up, or try to bend with what’s culturally cool. Though it would make life easier.

You haven’t said anything berating or against Church teaching. Well stated.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Joie stated that the Pharisees preferred legalism over sanity. They did this by ignoring human nature by just piling on more arcane rules to follow, and by things like chastising Jesus for healing on the Sabbath while allowing one to rescue a stranded animal on the Sabbath.

Joie then said that those who just leave the LGBQT alone don’t have the legalism and sense of moral superiority of the Pharisees. I sort of feel I’m in that position as I have my own sins to worry about before condemning theirs. With respect to the LGBQT, I want to see them in the Church, not out, where they can start a genuine process of inner conversion. That won’t happen if we try to use vinegar, rather than honey, to attract them.

You understood me perfectly although I would say it is more of chlorine gas than vinegar.

I wasn’t aware I had said anything berating or against Church teaching. I completely agree about establishing rapport. Jesus was most interested in the person for him/herself. That doesn’t mean I’m going to deny my identity as a follower of Christ, should it come up, or try to bend with what’s culturally cool. Though it would make life easier. Though I certainly may succumb to cowardice, like Peter.

I am quite sorry that you took it as though I directed it at you, that was not at all the intentional. Given that multiple line breaks and deliberately avoiding the word “you” did not succeed at conveying that it was a general open question to the readers of this thread and not you specifically (or at all) how would you suggest that I convey such addressee shifts other than making a separate post?

 

[TCEL]

You understood me perfectly although I would say it is more of chlorine gas than vinegar.

I am quite sorry that you took it as though I directed it at you, that was not at all the intentional. Given that multiple line breaks and deliberately avoiding the word “you” did not succeed at conveying that it was a general open question to the readers of this thread and not you specifically (or at all) how would you suggest that I convey such addressee shifts other than making a separate post?

Oh, I see now. No worries, and no suggestions. It just comes with the territory of forums.

 

[JosieN]

You understood me perfectly although I would say it is more of chlorine gas than vinegar.

I do not mean to be rude, but if you make broad statements about Christians in general that suggest they are like the Pharisees because they think they are superior to the LGBT and the only thing you have as proof against these Christians is their belief that it is a sin and an immoral act, are you yourself not acting superior and condemning these Christians for their beliefs and judging them without proof of any real wrong doing?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I do not mean to be rude, but if you make broad statements about Christians in general that suggest they are like the Pharisees because they think they are superior to the LGBT and the only thing you have as proof against these Christians is their belief that it is a sin and an immoral act, are you yourself not acting superior and condemning these Christians for their beliefs and judging them without proof of any real wrong doing?

That kind of behavior resulted in someone I know hanging themself.

 

[OraLabora]

I do not mean to be rude, but if you make broad statements about Christians in general that suggest they are like the Pharisees because they think they are superior to the LGBT and the only thing you have as proof against these Christians is their belief that it is a sin and an immoral act, are you yourself not acting superior and condemning these Christians for their beliefs and judging them without proof of any real wrong doing?

With all due respect a quick tour of these forums will quickly show that what Joie is talking about is not a sporadic phenomenon.

 

[JosieN]

That kind of behavior resulted in someone I know hanging themself.

You are making another broad statement and blaming all Christians for that person’s death. Do you see how this could turn into hatred for Christians and their beliefs?

 

[graciew]

Joie then said that those who just leave the LGBQT alone don’t have the legalism and sense of moral superiority of the Pharisees. .

All.right! So leave them “alone” not in the sense of " lonely" but not being on top of it.
Maybe that was the diffficulty.
I had to read it over more than once. I get it now!

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

You are making another broad statement and blaming all Christians for that person’s death. Do you see how this could turn into hatred for Christians and their beliefs?

The issue isn’t the beliefs, it is how they express them as many express it poorly at best. Prioritizing expressing how immoral gay sex is at the expense of everything else just repels people from the Church because gay people have heard it all before, sometimes right before being out on the street. What many haven’t seen is Christians who genuinely care about their welfare.

All.right! So leave them “alone” not in the sense of " lonely" but not being on top of it.
Maybe that was the diffficulty.
I had to read it over more than once. I get it now!

Correct. I’m actually in favor of evangelizing gay people, I just prefer to do it right and so their souls are actually saved instead of them being driven farther from God.