You don’t know if a gay, even a sexually active one, is in a state of mortal sin or not. They may be committing grave sin, but you do not know if they are mortally culpable or not. It’s none of your, or my, business. It’s between penitent, confessor and God.
I did not say it was my business. I suggested we offer help to them by leading them to Christ, so they find salvation, if you read my earlier posts you will know what I said earlier. It is not me who says that homosexuals are committing a sin when they have sex. It is in the Bible, in the Church teachings, and talked about many times by saints like St. Augustine. It is always between God and the sinner. Did I say it wasn’t? But for those looking for redemption and answers, Jesus Christ is the answer. Would you not agree?
If I didn’t agree, why would I bother being a Catholic and oblate?
Are you arguing invincible ignorance for homosexuality?
Here’s the thing. There’s a very fine line between hatemongering/bigotry. In fact the whole “hate the sin love the sinner” only adds to some confusion a lot of times. Because what if the so called sinner is not actually committing a sin? And then the whole let he who is without sin cast the first stone becomes very relevant. Soo…anyone can think that homosexuality is a moral disorder, vile, evil, mortal sin, etc…BUT the moment they actively try to legislate that view to deny a gay person civil rights (like marriage and adoption) that truly becomes textbook Bigotry.
The same way that Christ did with the rich young man. If they want to know how to be saved, tell them clearly. Christ offers no malice, but simply states what is True. Then let them make the choice to give up that which impedes their salvation, or to walk away. By definition, that is the pastoral means, as it is in direct imitation of Christ…
When the Church speaks if homosexuality being intrinsically disordered, it is in reference to the moral aspect, not the psychological. The Church does not, nor cannot speak authoritatively on matter of science and medicine, What it does direct it’s teachings towards are matters of Faith and Morals. In this case, the Church is addressing morals
A yes would have been fine.
Hello friend, first of all I absolutely respect your opinion and that was a very eloquent reply, but the biggest problem is that most of the people I have encountered with that view do not just wish them well and continue to pray for them.
Splendidly written.
I would claim that enabling same sex marriage is NOT wishing you well. In fact, it is the reverse, it is taking you away from the Joy of living according to Christ. In fact, support of such situations would quite correctly be called “wishing ill upon you”.
Yes, it is good that you are kind and contribute to society, but you would experience greater Joy if your situation was not as it is. And my prayers are that you end up , as St Mark did, and cease the rejection of the teachings of Christ and come to embrace them with your whole heart.
As a priest, I would never have allowed such an event in my parish, as you describe it. I would never have allowed myself to be part of such a thing. How can such an approach remotely be thought to “pastorally accompany” completely escapes me.
Why not? What is wrong with being open and honest?
I read through that, Father, with a special emphasis on the Pastoral Guide for Confessors.
I think it provides an excellent paradigm for the priest in dealing with people, starting where they are, and that continues across a long term journey in which they are pastorally accompanied.
In college, our Bishop personally hosted an hour sit-down at the Church dedicated for the college mission. It was advertised in our plaza and dining areas. It was simply an open, come ask questions to a Catholic Bishop. There was quite a crowd. I can’t recall if there was heckling or not. What irritated me was that it devolved into questions from people who had a problem with the fact that kneelers had recently been installed. (For years, due to construction, or something I’m not privy to, there had been none. It sounded like they didn’t want to kneel during the Liturgy of the Eucharist?) What a golden opportunity, hosted on a college campus, which devolved into dissident politics. I could tell the Bishop was irritated.
And that is why I think Josies proposal was quite valid. It had the same presumption that our Lord is capable of bringing everyone to sufficient repentance and the embracement of holiness.
That the very first key is a decisive break with sin. From there, the progressive path begins.
And that flavors my understanding of what ‘pastoral’ means.Maybe you can verify for me if this is true. I heard that sometimes in the Middle East, shepherds would break a leg or two of a wayward, straying sheep, so while they were healing they couldn’t go far from the shepherd, and so the sheep would associate the smell of the shepherd with safety. Hence, the image of Jesus carrying the lamb on his shoulders, because it couldn’t walk. Can you comment on the plausibility of this?And that is why I think Josies proposal was quite valid. It had the same presumption that our Lord is capable of bringing everyone to sufficient repentance and the embracement of holiness.
That was made very clear later on
That the very first key is a decisive break with sin. From there, the progressive path begins.
That requirement that the break with sin be decisive ( decided upon) is a key, even essential part of any gradual pathway.
That was made clear in Josie’s proposal, so I still fail to see how it is not pastoral.
Perhaps is my experience being an actual shepherd, as in caring for sheep. I used to spend my summers on my Aunt’s farm in Ireland. My early duties ( until I was old enough to legally drive the tractor on the roads) was to care for the sheep.
I did not have the traditional shepherd’s crook, mine was an old broomstick. But it’s reason was very clear. If the sheep did not respond to my voice, a tap was necessary. If the tap did not work, a harder one on the rump usually did the job. For those sheep that were in danger, or were particularly stubborn, the crook was used to grab them by the neck and drag them to where they needed to be. Lacking that crook, it was generally a headlock using my arm and drag them along until they got the idea.
So perhaps, when I see the bishops carry such staves, and knowing what they represent, I expect them to be used pastorally as a poimén would
You plan further marginalizes people. You can’t see that?
