Cardinal Marx: Church should see positive aspects of homosexual relationships [CWN]

[Brendan]

Maybe you can verify for me if this is true. I heard that sometimes in the Middle East, shepherds would break a leg or two of a wayward, straying sheep, so while they were healing they couldn’t go far from the shepherd, and so the sheep would associate the smell of the shepherd with safety. Hence, the image of Jesus carrying the lamb on his shoulders, because it couldn’t walk. Can you comment on the plausibility of this?

I have not heard that, and my experience is in Ireland, not the Middle East. I never saw that done in Ireland. I don’t know one way or the other about the Middle East.

 

[Brendan]

You plan further marginalizes people. You can’t see that?

Why, how does it differ from Christ’s encounter with the rich, young man?

Or from his Bread of Life discourse, when Christ gave True teaching, yet some left, claiming that “This is a hard teaching, who can accept it?”

That’s like gathering al the homneless people into a van and graciously driving them to the edge of town.

In Josie’s plan, what is being offered is the Bread of Life and a place in the Father’s house, which is far from what you claim.

 

[pianistclare]

Why, how does it differ from Christ’s encounter with the rich, young man?

Or from his Bread of Life discourse, when Christ gave True teaching, yet some left, claiming that “This is a hard teaching, who can accept it?”

In Josie’s plan, what is being offered is the Bread of Life and a place in the Father’s house, which is far from what you claim.

Well, when dealing with a lost sheep you go after the one.
With the “plan” you herd them all together and hope something sticks.
Not real effective with sheep or people.
It’s similar to those who believe Youth Ministry means ordering a bunch of pizza and playing loud music. Doesn’t feed the soul on any level. Conversion is an individual process, always preceded by a message of love. Not condoning, but true, fraternal love.

 

[Brendan]

Well, when dealing with a lost sheep you go after the one.
With the “plan” you herd them all together and hope something sticks.
Not real effective with sheep or people.

But Christ spoke to the multitudes, and even gathers sinners to dine with Him. That was certainly dealing with more than one at a time.

It’s similar to those who believe Youth Ministry means ordering a bunch of pizza and playing loud music. Doesn’t feed the soul on any level. Conversion is an individual process, always preceded by a message of love. Not condoning, but true, fraternal love.

I didn’t see where Josie proposed doing anything OTHER than speaking the Truth of the Church, which, by definition, is a message of love, true and fraternal.

 

[pianistclare]

But Christ spoke to the multitudes, and even gathers sinners to dine with Him. That was certainly dealing with more than one at a time.

I didn’t see where Josie proposed doing anything OTHER than speaking the Truth of the Church, which, by definition, is a message of love, true and fraternal.

The problem is conversion happens when the person themselves seeks to learn.
Simply hosting an event where people are asked to “show up so we can school you” minister to you, however you want to spin it…will never work.

When my parish offered free lunch food to a trailer park of poor children, their parent’s first question was “Are you going to send a bus to round us up to attend your church on Sunday if we eat your food?”

People don’t respond well when suspicious of your motives. And form the tone of this thread, the motive is to clearly label people as bigtime sinners.
Yeah. I think they got that memo in spades already. It doesn’t move them.
You can’t change people overnight with a casserole.
It just doesn’t work that way. You have to develop relationships. Really, friendships. They have to see how Catholicism feeds YOU…before they get in line for the feast.
This is just basic ministry methodology.
Hand wringing not necessary.
I’m out.
In a thread where people have dismissed a very educated member of the clergy, I don’t think anything I say will move anyone.
Bye.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

People don’t respond well when suspicious of your motives. And form the tone of this thread, the motive is to clearly label people as bigtime sinners.
Yeah. I think they got that memo in spades already. It doesn’t move them.
You can’t change people overnight with a casserole.
It just doesn’t work that way. You have to develop relationships. Really, friendships. They have to see how Catholicism feeds YOU…before they get in line for the feast.
This is just basic ministry methodology.

It’s also basic common sense, to me. You can’t convince anyone of the “Truth” if you have no credibility in their eyes.

As for the idea that to speak the truth is automatically charitable…then why did Pope Emeritus Benedict ever make that silly statement that truth without charity is just a clanging cymbal?

 

[Brendan]

The problem is conversion happens when the person themselves seeks to learn.

And hence the invitation. No one is forcing anyone to show up.

In a thread where people have dismissed a very educated member of the clergy, I don’t think anything I say will move anyone.
Bye.

Which thread is that?

 

[JosieN]

The same way that Christ did with the rich young man. If they want to know how to be saved, tell them clearly. Christ offers no malice, but simply states what is True. Then let them make the choice to give up that which impedes their salvation, or to walk away. By definition, that is the pastoral means, as it is in direct imitation of Christ…

I think it is a matter of honesty to let one know what is expected of them, anything less would seem deceitful. If what is offered interests them, GREAT!!, If not, we wish them well and continue to pray for them. St. Mark was one who left after the bread of Life discourse, but later returned when he realized the truth of the Eucharist. We can have the same hope that God will enlighten their intellects and help them see the Truth and Beauty of the Church’s teaching.

When the Church speaks if homosexuality being intrinsically disordered, it is in reference to the moral aspect, not the psychological. The Church does not, nor cannot speak authoritatively on matter of science and medicine, What it does direct it’s teachings towards are matters of Faith and Morals. In this case, the Church is addressing morals

In that what the homosexual attraction is ordered towards, or directed towards, is not a moral end. Hence it is improperly ordered, or disordered. And the ordering of homosexual attractions can never be a moral end, of it’s very nature, it is falsely ordered, so homosexuality is an intrinsic disorder.

Well said!

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

What if their definition of ‘hatemonger’ includes those who think that homosexuality is a moral disorder, one that requires celibacy?

By their definition, the whole doctrine of the Church is hate.

Ora covered it well

I would suggest a good way to do this would be to have a group meeting in the Parish Hall and invite gay people. Tell them you just want to talk to them, advertise it as what you called a “sit down and talk”. See who comes. Then have a priest speak with them, and those willing to give up their lifestyle would be welcomed back into the Church. They would go to confession, give up their gay relationships, be able to receive the Holy Eucharist, attend Church etc. The whole community could get involved with the welcoming. You could sing songs, pray with them, become friends etc. What do you think?

I believe it would be best this way, as there would be less confusion as to whether their lifestyle has now become acceptable by the Church. With the Pope’s recent comments being interpreted incorrectly, many in the media, and elsewhere are under the impression the Church has changed its views on homosexuality. I would like to hear him say they are welcomed in the Church, but they must give up their lifestyle, as it goes against Church teaching.

After your encounters with them, will they give up their lifestyle and live chaste lives? Will they go to confession before receiving the Holy Eucharist? Will they stop having sex with their gay partners? With God’s help it is possible. If your idea is successful, I hope it becomes acceptable in other parishes so that more conversions will happen. What do you think?

When you throw around terms like the gay lifestyle it makes you sound like the hatemongers who claim that “the gay agenda is going to destroy America” so it alienates people. For the people who for some unknown reason go through with that if they screw up they are going to become much more reluctant to admit failing and will instead try to cover it up for fear of judgement because lets face it, people will judge.

A poster suggested we talk to them and offer them help. Some are committing suicide and go into the streets for sex she said. So I replied to her. What is your definition of a practicing Catholic? Can you be a practicing Catholic and live in mortal sin and receive the Holy Eucharist at Mass? They would be in mortal sin if they were not celibate. I guess it depends on your definition of a practicing Catholic.

I said nothing about “go into the streets for sex” regarding that person, in fact that person was a virgin. They were afraid of being alone their entire life which given the discourse Catholics were engaging in was not surprising. People have a need for intimacy, not sex, but people who are isolated and starved of intimacy will make terrible irrational choices to fill the craving for intimacy like alcohol, drugs and casual sex. None of those actually fill the need

The same way that Christ did with the rich young man. If they want to know how to be saved, tell them clearly. Christ offers no malice, but simply states what is True. Then let them make the choice to give up that which impedes their salvation, or to walk away. By definition, that is the pastoral means, as it is in direct imitation of Christ…

I think it is a matter of honesty to let one know what is expected of them, anything less would seem deceitful. If what is offered interests them, GREAT!!, If not, we wish them well and continue to pray for them. St. Mark was one who left after the bread of Life discourse, but later returned when he realized the truth of the Eucharist. We can have the same hope that God will enlighten their intellects and help them see the Truth and Beauty of the Church’s teaching.

When the Church speaks if homosexuality being intrinsically disordered, it is in reference to the moral aspect, not the psychological. The Church does not, nor cannot speak authoritatively on matter of science and medicine, What it does direct it’s teachings towards are matters of Faith and Morals. In this case, the Church is addressing morals

In that what the homosexual attraction is ordered towards, or directed towards, is not a moral end. Hence it is improperly ordered, or disordered. And the ordering of homosexual attractions can never be a moral end, of it’s very nature, it is falsely ordered, so homosexuality is an intrinsic disorder.

The rich young man said he had already done everything and basically wanted a pat on the back for doing everything perfectly and so that is a terrible comparison.

Homosexuality is not an intrinsic disorder, gay sex is intrinsically disordered. Homosexuality is objectively disordered insofar as it is oriented toward something intrinsically disordered i.e. gay sex, insofar as it is not directed toward such things it is not objectively disordered.

Why not? What is wrong with being open and honest?

A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down

 

[TCEL]

I have not heard that, and my experience is in Ireland, not the Middle East. I never saw that done in Ireland. I don’t know one way or the other about the Middle East.

Seems like it would damage the merchandise. But, it would be interesting to research further.

 

[Brendan]

A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down

If we are telling them the Truth of the Church, that is sweetness itself.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Did I say we didn’t?

Much like abused children have difficulty trusting so too do LGBT people have difficulty trusting Christians after being abused. Sometimes the best you can do towards bringing an LGBT person towards God is helping get them to understand you mean them no harm and that Catholics actually care about them.

I guess saying SSA is disordered qualifies as abuse then.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

If we are telling them the Truth of the Church, that is sweetness itself.

In the same sense that demanding someone drink a pint of straight castor oil straight is sweetness itself

 

[JosieN]

I said nothing about “go into the streets for sex” regarding that person, in fact that person was a virgin. They were afraid of being alone their entire life which given the discourse Catholics were engaging in was not surprising. People have a need for intimacy, not sex, but people who are isolated and starved of intimacy will make terrible irrational choices to fill the craving for intimacy like alcohol, drugs and casual sex. None of those actually fill the need

Well then. we both agree gay people need help, but we don’t agree on the best way to give that help to them. Have you heard of Joseph Sciambra and his story? I think helping people like him is important. Here is a link and a quote from a Lifesite News Article on him.

"For Joseph, same-sex attraction is a cross that God has asked certain people to bear for the redemption of the world. Now running a Catholic religious shop in Napa, California, Joseph says that there is genuine joy in carrying the cross. By uniting his sufferings with those of the suffering Jesus, Joseph believes he is helping to save his gay friends from a devilish fate he barely escaped.

According to Joseph, many gay men have come to him, telling him of their unhappiness and their own similar experiences in the gay lifestyle. Joseph says he will speak first of his love for them. Then he will speak of how his encounter with and acceptance of God’s love saved him from being “swallowed by Satan.” He will tell them that gay sexual ecstasy is momentary and delusional, but God’s love is enduring, satisfying, and as real as it gets."

lifesitenews.com/news/gay-porn-actor-left-it-all-for-jesus-after-near-death-experience

You could bring someone like him to the meeting to talk to the LGBT people. maybe their parents could attend also, and he could tell them his personal story and how he was saved.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

According to Joseph, many gay men have come to him, telling him of their unhappiness and their own similar experiences in the gay lifestyle. Joseph says he will speak first of his love for them. Then he will speak of how his encounter with and acceptance of God’s love saved him from being “swallowed by Satan.” He will tell them that gay sexual ecstasy is momentary and delusional, but God’s love is enduring, satisfying, and as real as it gets."

lifesitenews.com/news/gay-porn-actor-left-it-all-for-jesus-after-near-death-experience

You could bring someone like him to the meeting to talk to the LGBT people. maybe their parents could attend also, and he could tell them his personal story and how he was saved.

The big difference here is that the “many gay men” took it upon themselves to approach Joseph. At least per this article, he’s just running a “Catholic religious shop”, not holding the type of meetings you suggest would be helpful.

ETA: I also get the feeling that Joseph would be happy to speak to even the gay men who are not ready to leave the lifestyle. Your proposal, on the other hand, specifies that IF the men repent then they will be welcomed into the Church. You haven’t said what happens to the ones who don’t repent on the spot. I’m wondering, too, do they get escorted out onto the street? If not, where do you expect them to go?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Well then. we both agree gay people need help, but we don’t agree on the best way to give that help to them. Have you heard of Joseph Sciambra and his story? I think helping people like him is important. Here is a link and a quote from a Lifesite News Article on him.

"For Joseph, same-sex attraction is a cross that God has asked certain people to bear for the redemption of the world. Now running a Catholic religious shop in Napa, California, Joseph says that there is genuine joy in carrying the cross. By uniting his sufferings with those of the suffering Jesus, Joseph believes he is helping to save his gay friends from a devilish fate he barely escaped.

According to Joseph, many gay men have come to him, telling him of their unhappiness and their own similar experiences in the gay lifestyle. Joseph says he will speak first of his love for them. Then he will speak of how his encounter with and acceptance of God’s love saved him from being “swallowed by Satan.” He will tell them that gay sexual ecstasy is momentary and delusional, but God’s love is enduring, satisfying, and as real as it gets."

lifesitenews.com/news/gay-porn-actor-left-it-all-for-jesus-after-near-death-experience

You could bring someone like him to the meeting to talk to the LGBT people. maybe their parents could attend also, and he could tell them his personal story and how he was saved.

Yes, I’m sure he could be incredibly helpful for getting those in the porn industry out. Finding porn and then the porn industry deeply unsatisfying? Who could have seen that coming?

Notice how “Joseph says he will speak first of his love for them” instead of repent or be gone.

I don’t see how this is helpful at all for most gay people.

 

[JosieN]

The big difference here is that the “many gay men” took it upon themselves to approach Joseph. At least per this article, he’s just running a “Catholic religious shop”, not holding the type of meetings you suggest would be helpful.

ETA: I also get the feeling that Joseph would be happy to speak to even the gay men who are not ready to leave the lifestyle. Your proposal, on the other hand, specifies that IF the men repent then they will be welcomed into the Church. You haven’t said what happens to the ones who don’t repent on the spot. I’m wondering, too, do they get escorted out onto the street? If not, where do you expect them to go?

I never meant for anyone to be rude to them and my idea was only a suggestion. It is my opinion being open and honest is the best approach. I could not possibly know what to say to them as I have no experience in this area. I only covered the basics as I know them, confession, repentance, and forgiveness. Gays must be treated with love, but also given the truth. When they are ready for conversion is up to them. I sincerely feel bad for this man and any gay person who wants to leave their past behind and start a new life in the Catholic Church.

 

[JosieN]

Yes, I’m sure he could be incredibly helpful for getting those in the porn industry out. Finding porn and then the porn industry deeply unsatisfying? Who could have seen that coming?

Notice how “Joseph says he will speak first of his love for them” instead of repent or be gone.

I don’t see how this is helpful at all for most gay people.

I agree speaking first of love is important and I did not say repent or be gone, but if they don’t give up their homosexuality, then how can they be part of the Church? It makes no sense. Why have Church teachings, Church rules, Commandments, The Bible, writings of the saints, etc., if they are ignored and not followed They are all part of the Catholic Church. It make no sense to follow only some of the rules and not all of the rules. They are there because they lead us to salvation.

 

[graciew]

I agree speaking first of love is important and I did not say repent or be gone, but if they don’t give up their homosexuality, then how can they be part of the Church? It makes no sense. Why have Church teachings, Church rules, Commandments, The Bible, writings of the saints, etc., if they are ignored and not followed They are all part of the Catholic Church. It make no sense to follow only some of the rules and not all of the rules. They are there because they lead us to salvation.

I had a longer riide than expected but here I am.
My mother- in- law passed away this Saturday and I am kind of attentive to my husband cause I know when he feels better when I am around. I do not need to guess,he asks. And we came to the ranch which used to belong to my mother- in law making a lot of stops We have been together for 30 years,I loved her too
Back to topic,whatever we plan has to be in line with a mission Father( our priest) gives us. We work together,our missions are aligned and in line with the Bishop and with the Pope. Well,maybe you know that.
So when Father says no and gives his reasons we just try and improve our brainstorming and align it further.
I was going to offer " my" arena. Solidarity. I have made a lot of friends there and also taken friends to help. We all have a skill,something we like and are good at,little or big,and our communities have needs so welcomei!
Hands on,time to work,time to talk,to laugh and cry. Time to entrust our mission to the Lord,and pray and serve and count on Him that he us with us.
So, I recruit friends wherever I can,and many are very lovable responding,and some come later on,and other help in their own ways.
So, my offer is rolling up our sleeves,and off for the grace of God we go! After asking new friends which área they would feel more comfortable serving and we introduce friends to friends.
And that is it. Journey begins!
How about that?
We could ask Father if its ok with him and if he can keep helping us further?
If I invited you,Josie,would you come with me?

 

[graciew]

In the same sense that demanding someone drink a pint of straight castor oil straight is sweetness itself

Well,if you know of somebody who is sad or lonely or needs friends around, pick him up and invité him home,please.
There is no second intention when somebody is hurting or weak but to lovingly hold them close and be around and pray and offer all we can to help.
We extend an invitation ,with our hearts.